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snoop
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Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 350
Location: SW Oregon
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 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Follow-up: syncros have a narrower front wheelbase than 2WD; presumably in order to facilitate more suspension articulation. It's not hard to provide a silimar geometry to the 2WD front suspension...really.
Or maybe it's just more cool-aid  
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presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| snoop wrote: |
| Kinda amazed that increasing bumpstop dimension is being considered as a solution to the problem of fender well impact. |
I wouldn't call it amazing but just another band-aid solution.
| Quote: |
| It's not hard to provide a silimar geometry to the 2WD front suspension...really. |
Not hard? As in custom upper and lower control arms? Clearancing the battery box and whatever else? Hold on, give me a few minutes...
| presslab wrote: |
| Do you have aftermarket front brakes? My DIY G60 push my wheels out 8mm. Almost seems to me like the Carrots have the wrong offset. How much clearance is there between the UCA and the tire? What is your axle to fender lip dimension? |
Dubbified, we're left to assume you have Smallcar big brakes?
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 350
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: |
| snoop wrote: |
| Kinda amazed that increasing bumpstop dimension is being considered as a solution to the problem of fender well impact. |
I wouldn't call it amazing but just another band-aid solution.
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Well, I'd have to say that you're not fully appreciating the situation A little surgery and she's fixed beats any amount of band-aids and she aint...just sayin'.
| presslab wrote: |
Not hard? As in custom upper and lower control arms? Clearancing the battery box and whatever else?
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It's really not that hard...reorient the UCA BJ mounting plate...done, no fender bangy...
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presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| snoop wrote: |
| It's really not that hard...reorient the UCA BJ mounting plate...done, no fender bangy... |
Interesting, yes, but how does this keep the tire from hitting the fender?
Your mod would give more tire/wheel clearance but will only be beneficial with a different wheel offset.
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti
Last edited by presslab on Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:52 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 350
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: |
| snoop wrote: |
| It's really not that hard...reorient the UCA BJ mounting plate...done, no fender bangy... |
Interesting, yes, but how does this keep the tire from hitting the fender? 
Your mod would give more tire/wheel clearance but will only be beneficial with a different wheel offset. |
I think you answered your own question...the "more tire/wheel clearance" is what keeps the tire from hitting the fender. But yes, you're right, one will need to remove/reduce front spacer thickness as a result of the UCA modification. If one is running a wheel with an ET less than 30 or so, and so presumably with no spacers, there's no way to accomplish that, so, well, I guess it's gonna have to be fender flares 
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 350
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: |
Does this change the roll center so that the camber a bunch as the wheel travels?
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Yes, although in practical terms the wheel travel gained by the wheel traveling in to the wheelwell instead of into it is far more positive an attribute than is the negative attribute of the tiny amount of increased treadwear that increased suspension articulation induced camber expression attends. Handling is not affected in any way that I can discern.
| presslab wrote: |
I'd guess that a different offset wheel would fix this issue, even without flipping the UCA. |
Check with loogy for the best info there, but my experience is that by about a 225 series tire, it's very difficult to simultaneously get suspension articulation of the front wheel in to the wheel well and no rubbing of the UCA BJ mount on the inside of the tire...a 30 ET is the sweet spot of course, which is why starting with a higher ET helps...one can use spacers to get close to it.
Just to clarify, the UCA is not flipped, just cut off and re-welded at a different orientation...instead of "in-line" with the horseshoe, or 180 degrees, it's at ~160 degrees. Somewhere here I provided exact angles.
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Last edited by snoop on Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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presslab
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Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| snoop wrote: |
| Just to clarify, the UCA is not flipped, just cut off and re-welded at a different orientation...instead of "in-line" with the horseshoe, or 180 degrees, it's at ~160 degrees. Somewhere here I provided exact angles. |
So what prompted you to do this mod, do you have very wide tires on your van that rubbed on both the UCA and the fender lip? How wide are we talking here?
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 350
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: |
| snoop wrote: |
| Just to clarify, the UCA is not flipped, just cut off and re-welded at a different orientation...instead of "in-line" with the horseshoe, or 180 degrees, it's at ~160 degrees. Somewhere here I provided exact angles. |
So what prompted you to do this mod, do you have very wide tires on your van that rubbed on both the UCA and the fender lip? How wide are we talking here? |
GW ET 23 16x7.5 wheels with BFG 215/70/16 AT KOs tires beat the crap out of my van's fender lips. This was with the early syncro.org lift springs and the early H&R GW lift springs... 
Did the mod, now run CLK ET 37 (effective ET 30 w/spacer) with Dean Mud Terrain 225/75/16 tires with no fender bangs under any circumstance in over 3 years (and sometimes really trying  ).
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
Well.. no doubt.. a set of CLKs or MBZ steelies will help solve the problem.
But I do not consider changing shock travel lengths a "band-aid" fix but rather a "compromise".. necessary to run certain tire/wheels combos. |
The use of the word "band-aid" rather than "compromise" was not meant to offend and really comes down to semantics.
I would not disagree that certain reasonable compromises need to be made under certain situations. A 1/2" bump stop length increase is a compromise. However, when the compromises are too great and start to have seriously negative affect performance, I would consider it much more serious compromise, hence the use of the term band-aid. Believe me, I have performed my fair share of band-aids in an effort to get a look that I wanted, so I understand the motivation.
In the case here, where the effective wheel offset is so far out of spec that the steps required to prevent the tire rubbing will take measures that are either extreme (cutting the fender openings larger) or will negatively compromise performance (bump stops long enough to prevent rubbing will limit upward travel to a fairly large degree and/or stronger springs will create articulation and ride quality issues), I would start to consider those measures a band aid fix to the real problem rather than a compromise (my own opinion).
However, you are correct in that it is totally up to the individual to decide where that line is for their own personal purposes/goals.
| j_dirge wrote: |
| Its up to the individual to decide if the compromise is worth the trade-offs. |
Absolutely! I couldn't agree more. My point was not meant to railroad a person into doing what I think is right, but rather to simply point out the biggest culprit in the current system and the affect that keeping the culprit in place will have on trying to solve the issue.
| j_dirge wrote: |
Still.. with a set of CLKs (ET37) minus the disk hat 8mm.. He's sitting at ET29 with a fairly wide/tall tire.
Experience tells me that if he is to drive on uneven terrain.. especially loaded up, he will still need to increase bump stop (compromising upward travel by as much as 1/2") to avoid tires hitting the upper fender.. And still possibly requiring rolling the fender lip and/or bumping it out a skoash.
The latter can be done for hundred bucks and change.. and only takes a shop a day to do.. riight? |
While I think it may be just a touch difficult to say exactly what the bump stop length should be, I definitely agree that a small adjustment to the bump stop length can be very beneficial when it comes to preventing the tires from catching on the fender lips in many cases. With the 16x7 ET37/Small Car brakes/225-65-R16 tire scenario, the adjustments should end up being minimal and very effective.
However, Alex did say that he likes his wheels and tires, so he is kind of stuck with the offset issue unless he changes the brake package, which doesn't sound like a consideration at this point. I completely respect his choice to keep the wheel/tire/brake parts the way that they are now.
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"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
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purplepeopleeater
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Joined: July 23, 2005
Posts: 3117
Location: E. Washington
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I have MBZ 16's with 27'' tires, I put sensatracs on but still have marshmellow springs, make fender contact.
springs are my winter project I thinks.
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j_dirge
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Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| snoop wrote: |
| And given that one can run any size tire, including as big as is possible within the constraints of the 14" wheelwell, and realize FULL suspension articulation, by utilizing either a simple UCA modification or (presumably...jim?) Burley UCAs...well, yea, kinda amazed. |
I certainly appreciate your experiences. You are one of the pioneers, afterall. 
My point is that there are trade-offs no matter our choices.
As an example.. If you install taller springs, but maintain the same shocks, then you may have increased upward travel.. but it is at the expense of downward travel. So, maybe your intent is to re-engineer so you get similar upward travel and downward travel as OEM.. but now at the new height of +2" in the arc of overall suspension travel.
If one has gone up 2" with springs, then losing 1/2" to more bumpstop is really not that big a net loss.. ESPECIALLY if you can find a long travel shock (like the Rancho) that buys that extra distance back in the downwrd direction
So lets say the next step is to find longer shocks to increase overall travel (to regain some of that downward travel).. now you may have compromised upward travel..as appears to be the case with the Ranchos (longer compressed measurment, by 1").
I really tore up one of my tires.. and the fix was some scrap cut to shape to increase bump stop. It was inexpensive and effective. HOWEVER, you and Chris bring up very important points.
Changing geometry may be necessary and for some, much preferred. But I don't think that the negative effect of OP's Carrot ET can be corrected with only UCA geometery adjustment.
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-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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j_dirge
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Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Snoop,
You still running the Monroe Sensatracs up front?
If so which model number.. I am curious the compressed vs extended lengths in comparison to those I listed at earlier.
Thanks man...
Lovin' the Kool-aid by the way. Good stuff!
-jim
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 350
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
Snoop,
You still running the Monroe Sensatracs up front?
If so which model number.. I am curious the compressed vs extended lengths in comparison to those I listed at earlier.
Thanks man...
Lovin' the Kool-aid by the way. Good stuff!
-jim |
It's the 58253 model jim. I'll have to get back to you on the specs.
So what is the ET of the VC Carat wheel?
mike
BTW, Zimzam did the UCA mod, told me he loved it...think he's got a pic in his gallery...gotta get to work niow 
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| snoop wrote: |
So what is the ET of the VC Carat wheel?
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ET25
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 350
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| snoop wrote: |
So what is the ET of the VC Carat wheel?
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ET25 |
Oh. Well, disregard everything that I wrote then...there is no fix for that; compromise, band-aids and such it is then.
FWIW, when I was in the same situation, I chose what I did (getting different wheels) because function drives my van parts decisions; I recognize that for others form may be more important. S'what makes the world go 'round...
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:50 am Post subject: |
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I have numerous sets of R9s with ET23....my Syncros love them  |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| I have numerous sets of R9s with ET23....my Syncros love them |
Yes, but the Syncros have a slightly narrower front track width than the 2wd and dubbified has the Small Car brake package on his 2wd which pushes the wheels out 7.2mm further (making for a 18mm effective offset), compounding the problem.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]
Last edited by Christopher Schimke on Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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insyncro
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Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Yup, stocker brakes on them, but Powerslot rotors.
Which hubs are on his van....2wd SA?
I didnt realize they changed the outset that much. |
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j_dirge
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Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| I have numerous sets of R9s with ET23....my Syncros love them |
With all due respect, Dubbified needs a wheel between ET42 and ET35 with his choice of brakes.. The wheel you are referring to will make matters worse.. although I have to admit, that wheel is one of my favorite lookers.
Also.. we are discussing 2WDs.. The geometry is unique from the syncro.
As I am sure you are aware.
edit.. OOPS Chris cover it!
Do you have any of those old MBZ steelies laying around?.. or better, a set of CLKs?
Thats what he's gonna want to sport on that ride of his to help clear up the fender bangin....
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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dubbified
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Joined: March 03, 2010
Posts: 1406
Location: Redmond, WA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Oh man, I wake up to find all this, you guys.. are Awesome!
Yes, The wheels are 25 et, and those are the VC Audi 200 brakes front/rear.. I was not aware these would change the ET!
Yea, my reluctance at changing wheels, This wheel and tire package wasn't cheap... 150 a wheel, 195 a tire, I powdercoated the set ontop of it, so, we're talking i spent upward of 2500 on them.. not really talkin shipping or the man.. X5, not 4..
And.. They really ride nice, they get alot of compliments, which is nice.. but you guys are right, functionality..
Yep, a 27.5 inch tire, 27 as they're on the ground.. I'd think without changing anything, even a 26-24 inch tire is still gunna get the fender slammin down on it?? Again, my issue seems to be weight related..
Presently, there are 0 bump stops atop of my Konis. Hmm.
I am curious about the Napa or the Moog 5662, need to figure out what the rear springs should be if I'm buying a full set. Running weight, axle to fender lip is also good to know, will have to do more research on those threads to make a decision.
I'm going to be visiting Burley.. who knows what madness can go on there.. Hah! |
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