| Author |
Message |
timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
|
 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| j_dirge wrote: |
But in this case timichango DID go to "professionals". They installed thier own products.. seemingly unaware of this problem.
They then tell timichango that they have installed this exact combo on dozens of vans.
So dozens of vans are cutting thier tires up and wondering, "What the..?" |
Yes, precisely.
I haven't been the one picking the parts here, and have been operating on good faith that the Vanagon specialists to whom my considerable funds have been flowing were prescribing upgrades and parts that work together. It never even occurred to me that there could be a problem until there was, nor did it occur to me that I'd need to be consulting with an external consultant in order to get a professional shop to spec a working system. I can't tell if this is a 'live and learn' thing, or just a case of bad luck in this instance.
In any case, the parts are clearly not working together. And according to the wisdom and data in this thread, the fix they're prescribing is a band-aid. IMHO, SC is responsible for making this work, but I'm intent on making sure that the solution is an actual resolution of the problem, and not just a mask or negative compromise. I feel this way partially because I suspect that if this setup is not working on my van, then I can't be the only one, since they claim to install them all of the time. Resolving this the right way for me will hopefully lead them to spec something better for other owners, since it doesn't sound like they've got any reason to keep specifying this setup (they're not turning a big profit on the tires and rims, according to them) other than preference.
Frankly, I've been through the 'what wheels fit' threads, and—as I said—I'm not a mechanic, nor am I technical when it comes to cars. Nor, in the handful of pages in that thread (I simply can't read through 87 pages looking for the fairly specific nugget of info I'm after) have I found any info about what works on a 2wd van with the SC big brake kit & a high-end 4-season tire like the Nokians I've currently got. The info might be in there, but I can't locate/decipher/recognize it.
Riddle me this: would simply dropping down to the equivalent 15" wheels (the same 15" alloy eurolook ones that VC sells and a set of the nokian wrg2 205 70R15 XL) tires shave off enough height and width to get me into the safe zone? If so, that's what I'll be pushing SC to replace my wheels with.
Again, many thanks! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| j_dirge wrote: |
| tarandusVDub wrote: |
Just for frame of reference:
1984 full westy
SC Audi big front brakes
GW 16" wheel pkg with 215/60-16 Good Year Assurance
stock springs
Bilstein HD shocks
No cutting or rubbing with this lower profile tire although I've tried to make it happen on forest roads and driveways etc. |
Helpful..
If that combination clears.. then maybe timi and dubbi are not too far off?.
Confirm.. Your SC kit is the Girling G60 (dual piston).. with disk hat.
And which specific wheel is in your GW package? The MBZ? What ET is it? |
Yep, assuming that the SC wheels are the same as the GW wheels (and VC wheels), which I reckon they are, then that's close to my setup.
I'm going to look for more data on those tires and compare to the specs on my nokians... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| timichango wrote: |
Riddle me this: would simply dropping down to the equivalent 15" wheels (the same 15" alloy eurolook ones that VC sells and a set of the nokian wrg2 205 70R15 XL) tires shave off enough height and width to get me into the safe zone? If so, that's what I'll be pushing SC to replace my wheels with.
Again, many thanks! |
How aboout a big MAYBE...? 
You want to make sure what the exact ET is of any particular wheel, regardless if they look like another wheel.
So, yes.. the 15" tire will be shorter and *might* clear.. but to verify, you'll need to know the exact ET of that 15" wheel.
You also want to verify with SC that thier brake package will fit inside the 15" wheel of your choice.
Still.. You may not need to go to 15" wheels.
The CLK 16" will likely do the job. But SC can not get them "new". You'd have to souce a set used and provide them.
My guess.. my "estimate".. is that the 16" CLK wheels (ET37) will get you 99% of the way there, if not 100% clear, with the tires you have now.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| j_dirge wrote: |
How aboout a big MAYBE...?
You want to make sure what the exact ET is of any particular wheel, regardless if they look like another wheel.
So, yes.. the 15" tire will be shorter and *might* clear.. but to verify, you'll need to know the exact ET of that 15" wheel.
You also want to verify with SC that thier brake package will fit inside the 15" wheel of your choice.
Still.. You may not need to go to 15" wheels.
The CLK 16" will likely do the job. But SC can not get them "new". You'd have to souce a set used and provide them.
My guess.. my "estimate".. is that the 16" CLK wheels (ET37) will get you 99% of the way there, if not 100% clear, with the tires you have now. |
ET on the VC 15" wheels is still 23, like the 16" ones.
Apparently the 16" ones also come in a 38 et, but are 7.5" wide (quick poking around, it looks like the CLKs are 7" wide? Would it be possible to run a 7.5" tire with et38 on this setup?).
Also, presumably, while et23 sounds like its too far out for the front, presumably it's correct for the rear? So I'd be running mismatched wheels front/back? So no tire rotations possible?
I'm way out of my depth here.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| timichango wrote: |
| I'm way out of my depth here. |
Thats where it gets fun! 
I learned a lot of this the hard way, too. Most of us do.. but trust me.. If you have fit mismatched parts on bikes.. then you have some idea how it works here, too.
IF that 16" wheel comes in ET38.. I am thinking THAT is your solution and *might* be all you need.
Can you link the page where you see that 16" wheel with ET38?
If it is the case..
I'd ask SC to replace all wheels with ET38s (after test fitment on fronts only to verify).. and then use a 10mm spacer in the rear to even out the track some.. Don't go more than 10mm (maybe 12mm), or your tire will begin to get real close to the sliding door. (My 225 tire is less than 1 mm from slding door on ET37 and 10mm spacers... but lets cross that bridge when you sort the fronts.
FWIW, An ET38 over the disks is a nice flush fitment up front and has a really clean look. Keeps some more debris off the side of the van, too. Think rain, mud, snow.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| timichango wrote: |
| j_dirge wrote: |
| tarandusVDub wrote: |
Just for frame of reference:
1984 full westy
SC Audi big front brakes
GW 16" wheel pkg with 215/60-16 Good Year Assurance
stock springs
Bilstein HD shocks
No cutting or rubbing with this lower profile tire although I've tried to make it happen on forest roads and driveways etc. |
Helpful..
If that combination clears.. then maybe timi and dubbi are not too far off?.
Confirm.. Your SC kit is the Girling G60 (dual piston).. with disk hat.
And which specific wheel is in your GW package? The MBZ? What ET is it? |
Yep, assuming that the SC wheels are the same as the GW wheels (and VC wheels), which I reckon they are, then that's close to my setup.
I'm going to look for more data on those tires and compare to the specs on my nokians... |
Looks like those rubbers are 26.1" tall and 8.7" wide — shorter than my nokians by 0.9" but the same width.
Conversely, looking at the Nokian spec sheet, they offer a 215 60R16 that's 26.1" high. Could it be as simple as swapping my 215 65R16 Nokians for those?
There's also a 205 60R16 Nokian that's shorter still, and narrower—25.7" tall, and 8.2" wide... according to the spec sheet they'll work on a 7.5" rim, but 6" is recommended.
Is getting smaller tires that'll clear onto these rims a good/viable/desirably solution, or is it 'yet another bandaid/compromise/workaround' that's simply compensating for the wheels being wrong?
Overall, I'm a bit buffaloed... it's weird to me that we've got 3 vendors (SC, VC, GW) all selling these wheels if they're patently wrong (et/width/etc).
Gah! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| timichango wrote: |
Overall, I'm a bit buffaloed... it's weird to me that we've got 3 vendors (SC, VC, GW) all selling these wheels if they're patently wrong (et/width/etc).
Gah! |
They are not "wrong". The wheel probably fits OK with OEM brake sets and maybe VCs big brake set.
Where they do not fit is with G60 upgrades that use turned down OEM hubs with an Audi disk hat (+8mm track each side).. which is what we assume the SC big brake set up is.
HOWEVER.. I do recall pics showing fender bang with GW 16" ET25(?) MBZ style rims.
Remember.. all these wheel/tire sets have quite a bit more outboard presence than the stock 14" wheels..
But lets not get off track here... (pun.. heh..)
Lets look at those 16" ET38 rims you spoke of earlier.. link a page?
My gut says they are the better path at this point.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tarandusVDub
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 1649
Location: Between Here and There
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| j_dirge wrote: |
Confirm.. Your SC kit is the Girling G60 (dual piston).. with disk hat.
And which specific wheel is in your GW package? The MBZ? What ET is it? |
I'm a bit of a noob with brake specifics, also having relied on SC for putting together kits that works...(I also want to say they have been very good to work with in sorting out issues with conversion, etc.).
Yes, Girling 60, with disk hat (I believe). Am getting info from GW on wheel specifics now and will post when I get them.
On a related note, they also installed the rear Audi disk brakes, and now my slider door rubs a bit on the rear tire. Those brakes offset the tires about 10mm I believe, so anyone contemplating that upgrade should keep that in mind too...I plan to get better all season tires next time around, and believe there may be an issue with this at that time...
_________________
1990 Syncro 16" DoppleKabine 2.1 DJ 112i
________________________
Sold: 1972 Bay Campmobile; 1984 Westy, base model, 2WD. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PDXWesty
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6247
Location: Portland OR
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tarandusVDub
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 1649
Location: Between Here and There
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| tarandusVDub wrote: |
Thanks PDX!
Looks like my tires are ET-23. |
wheels
Your wheels are ET23 
So no fender bang on your set up? Hmm..
Can you provide a photo from front showing the wheel/tire and how much it stick sout?
I'll post one of mine later when I can click it.
But it might be the case that a 26" tire will fit where a 27" tire just won't.
I caution you, though.. I thought I had mine sorted out.. Literally drove thousands of miles. driveways, dirt roads... And then one day I drove down into a camp spot, loaded to the gills.. I hit some uneven holes.. braked.. and CRUNCH.. shred... a sickening sound. CHUNKS of rubber flaps.
Nope.. on extreme compression mine STILL frickin' hit.
Keep on eye on them. Be careful with yours.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| j_dirge wrote: |
Lets look at those 16" ET38 rims you spoke of earlier.. link a page?
My gut says they are the better path at this point. |
They're mentioned on the VC 16" wheel page: http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_1552_341/european-look_alloy_16_x_7.5.html
Since these (in the ET23 variety) are identical to the ones SC supplied, I'm assuming that they can source the ET38 variant just as easily.
My big question around moving to the ET38 version is 'will moving the 7.5" ET23 wheel inboard by swapping to 7.5" wheels with ET38 cause rub issues on the inner side of the wheel/tire/sc brakes/whatever?'
FWIW, my rear wheels with the SC/VC/GW eurostyle wheels with ET23 and the 215 65R16 nokians do cause my sliding door to rub on the tire—just barely. No brake upgrades back there either—they're the stock drums. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| timichango wrote: |
My big question around moving to the ET38 version is 'will moving the 7.5" ET23 wheel inboard by swapping to 7.5" wheels with ET38 cause rub issues on the inner side of the wheel/tire/sc brakes/whatever?'
|
Well. I think this begins to fall back into SC's domain.. but for the sake of anyone else looking at this problem.. lets establish some assumptions.
We shall assume that the SC G60 big brake kits uses turned down OEM hubs with audi disks over adding 8mm of offset.
IF this is the case (please verify with SC that they are doing this and not possibly turning down the hubs more to narrow them or using some other hub ?). then yes.. there is a lot of room back in there.
Mty ET37 16" steel wheels over the same type of brake set up sits about 10-11 mm off the UCA (upper control arm) My tire (taller and wider than yours) is entirely clear of anything on the inside.
Personally, I'd feel conifdent asking SC to consider this ET38 set up (if I were the customer). It should result in an effective ET of 30 in front.. which is right in the zone!
DISCLAIMER:
I AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL AUTOMOTIVE ENGINEER. I AM JUST A GUY WHO TINKERS A LITTLE AND HAS A LOT OF TIME ON HIS HANDS THESE LAST COUPLE DAYS.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| timichango wrote: |
My big question around moving to the ET38 version is 'will moving the 7.5" ET23 wheel inboard by swapping to 7.5" wheels with ET38 cause rub issues on the inner side of the wheel/tire/sc brakes/whatever?'
|
It's as tight as you would want to go, but you will have enough clearance between the wheel and the upright as well as between the tire and the upper control arm. You will want to have them balanced with tape weights rather than clip-on weights in order to ensure that the weights don't hit on the upright.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Alright, it sounds like we're getting close here.
Talked to smallcar while the last 2 (very helpful!) posts were coming in and suggested the ET38s—response was that they definitely need to find an et38 wheel, and mount it up to see, but they seemed intrigued by the suggestion.
Not sure exactly how they come by the hubs, but off the top of Keiths head it was 7 or 8 mm. So presumably your guesses are on-track.
The big question remains: will 14mm of inbound movement buy enough clearance to save the tires? Or will I/they still need to move to narrower or lower profile rubber? Or add modest bumpstoppery to the shocks?
I'm not sure if the mental health benefits of having better braking (and the consequent wheel issues) are getting outweighed by the mental health detriments of trying to navigate this problem  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| timichango wrote: |
Or add modest bumpstoppery to the shocks?
|
May still be necessary .. but one step at a time. The added bumpstop is relatively easy to do.. and is "fine tuning" IMHO.
| Quote: |
I'm not sure if the mental health benefits of having better braking (and the consequent wheel issues) are getting outweighed by the mental health detriments of trying to navigate this problem |
Oh..
just wait til you drive it.. Its worth the anguish.. which soon dissipates as care free miles roll by.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Looking back at the original post in this thread by dubbified, I find myself wondering about those Carrot rims—I can't find a width spec on'em, since the 16" ones aren't on the VC site anymore it seems. Are they 7.5" or 7" wide?
If they're 7" wide, and dubbified is still having chopping issues, I'm nervous that moving my Eurolook 7.5" wheels inboard by 0.5" isn't going to help matters; he's running 225 tires however, and I'm on 215s so...
So many permutations... brain... not... keeping up... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The 16" "Carrot" wheels are 7.5" wide.
And just a quick correction to something that I said earlier. I kept saying that the Small Car kit moved the wheels outward 8.2mm when in fact that kit moves the wheels out 7.2mm. I know it sounds minor, but I like be as accurate as possible. I edited my previous posts to reflect the correction. Sorry about that! Let's just call it a brain fart on my part.
This doesn't change my assertion that the ET38 wheels will fit. It will be very tight (within a couple of millimeters), but there will be plenty of clearance, assuming Small Car does not "face" the hubs after the rotor is removed.
If you (or Small Car) are not comfortable with how close the wheels are to the uprights (you only need about 3mm of clearance) and you absolutely feel like you need to move the wheels out just a hair, I have 3mm spacers in stock that will move the wheels back out slightly without getting anywhere near the effective offset that you have now (ET16). Adding the 3mm spaces to the mix would result in an effective offset of 28mm. In other words, you would be moving the wheel inboard 12mm compared to your original setup.
Don't worry about all of the other stuff right now. Get your wheels positioned correctly, then see if you need to do more work. Like Jim said, adding a small extension to the bumpstops (if necessary) is fairly easy.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My 15x6 wheels are ET45, with 215-75/15 tires. It's close, but no tire rubbing on the control arm.
For those curious where the 7.2mm dimension comes from, you can see the thickness of the rotor hat in this drawing:
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| presslab wrote: |
My 15x6 wheels are ET45, with 215-75/15 tires. It's close, but no tire rubbing on the control arm.
|
What, are you trying to give the guy nightmares about wheels? Just kidding!
I know that you know this, but for the sake of those that don't, it should be pointed out that 15" wheel fitment is very different than 16" wheel fitment. Where a 15x7 ET37 wheel may require a 7mm spacer (at least) to prevent the wheel from rubbing on the upright, a 16x7 ET37 fits without the absolute need for spacers (usually).
In addition, the tire sidewall width is increased or decreased when mounted an various width wheels, even for the same size tire. For example, the real world sidewall width of a 215 tire will be X amount narrower when installed onto a 6" wheel when compared to it mounted on a 7" wheel. According to Tire Rack, "The industry rule of thumb is that for every 1/2" change in rim width, the tire's section width will correspondingly change by approximately 2/10"".
The main point is that you either have to compare apples to apples, have the experience to know the differences, or do the math to discover the differences and have the experience to know how to compare them.
Sorry Presslab. I'm not trying to be nit-picky about it, but these things have a way of getting out of control (Wait, what? But Joe said his wheels fit... Why don't mine?) without accurate and clear information.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
