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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 351
Location: SW Oregon
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 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| timichango wrote: |
Quick update on my front: after much finnagling with options and timelines, here's what we wound up doing:
CLKs with T3 Technique center-caps & hardware. These definitely sit significantly more inboard than the SC alloys did, with no rubbing on the inboard side. Here's hoping this puts an end to my tire rub issues!
Huge thanks to Chris Schimke, and everyone who helped toss great insight at this problem. |
Thanks for sharing the happy outcome with us timi...miles of smiles ahead for you!
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87 Westy Camper |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Quick update on my front: after much finnagling with options and timelines, here's what we wound up doing:
CLKs with T3 Technique center-caps & hardware. These definitely sit significantly more inboard than the SC alloys did, with no rubbing on the inboard side. Here's hoping this puts an end to my tire rub issues!
Huge thanks to Chris Schimke, and everyone who helped toss great insight at this problem.
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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dubbified
Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2010
Posts: 1406
Location: Redmond, WA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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I think while i'm not choppin immediately as a result to rolling fenders, I've still got some work ahead.
Course, I added a pretty heavy rear apparatus over the last month and a half, which seems to have countered some of the front weight, odd.
Not a permanent fix.
I am also finding running at the top of the Konis travel lenth isnt workin, its noisy.. |
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tarandusVDub
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 1649
Location: Between Here and There
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Great! Hopefully this will put your issues to bed, and you can get out there camping before the snow flies!
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1990 Syncro 16" DoppleKabine 2.1 DJ 112i
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Sold: 1972 Bay Campmobile; 1984 Westy, base model, 2WD. |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks!
Those could very well be the ticket... Chris pointed them out as well—I'll be following up with him, and I'm already in touch with the seller. Fingers crossed...
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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dubbified
Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2010
Posts: 1406
Location: Redmond, WA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Another update, after driving around for some time in mixed conditions, I've not heard any impacts..
Course, I'm sure I still need to do some work to resolve, taller springs/shock would be the course I'm going to take.. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:13 am Post subject: |
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You could add a Syncro subframe and a few other bits to be able to take advantage of the clearance.
I have built three faux Syncros for owners wanting a raised van without the limitations of the 2wd frontend.
Just an idea 
A new set of rims will be more cost effective, obviously.
I just sold a complete frontend...there is one in the classifieds at one third of what I fetch...in CO. |
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tarandusVDub
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 1649
Location: Between Here and There
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
In my own processing, I found that the WORST postion for tire damage is turned out just a hair from straight. |
That's consistent with mine—anywhere between about 5-10 deg. of turn, and as little as a 3/4' 30 deg. + driveway bump at lowish speeds has done the trick in eliciting the BRRRRRRRRP of pain.
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
Actually, in the case of timichango, SmallCar changed everything. They sold it all as a professional package install if timi's report is to be held true.. Thier products. Their work. And then said "we've never had reports of tire damage using these products"
In this case THEY did not do the homework.
I don't read timi "blaming" Smallcar. He has asked Smallcar to solve the problem. Maybe.. maybe 3/8" of spacer will prevent the tires hitting.
Won't know til they run it thru its paces. |
Agreed—I don't doubt that Smallcar sold me this configuration in good faith at the outset, and I'm even willing to buy that they've not encountered this issue yet on other sales, though, as you say, PDX, the variables are numerous, and vans are all different, so mine may just get to be the proverbial canary in the coal mine.
I'll also say outright that I really like everyone, especially Keith, that I've dealt with directly at Smallcar. For what it's worth, I'd not even be citing their name publicly in relation to this if it wasn't their specific brake upgrade + wheel/tire package that was the culprit here.
They've been good about investigating what's up, and putting in free shop time (including a false-start on their part, trying to put in incompatible Syncro springs in place of the 2wd VC springs they claimed, after selling them to me, were too soft) to resolve the issue. They even comped an oil & filter change to make-up for the wasted time around that particular red herring.
Where things seem to be falling down is around an apparent unwillingness to consider the wheels as a mis-specified part, which is what's being asserted here by many. If it were my business, I'd eat the margin on this sale, make it right, and then use that as the basis for my future sales as an investment/insulation against future problems with future customers. But that's just me, and I'm not in their shoes.
We'll see if the bump-stops 'fix' the issue. I don't have the wherewithal to pull the springs out and use J_Dirge's method, so I'll just have to take some curbs like a maniac and see what's left on my wheels 
But, time & money permitting, I reckon there're different wheels in this van's future. I generally don't like halfbaked solutions, even if they do work in the short run. Dad always used the saying 'you pay me now or you pay me later', and I've generally found it to be true.
Though, 'sometimes you eat the b'ar, and sometimes the b'ar, he eats you' might be more apt in this particular instance.
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| PDXWesty wrote: |
| I just assume it's my responsibility to know what will be ok or not.. |
Typically, I agree with that sentiment entirely. However, I've been forced to concede over the years—much to my chagrin—that it's impossible to know everything about everything, and at some point you need to defer to and trust folks who (ostensibly) hold specialized knowledge that it would be way too time consuming or expensive to obtain oneself. Heck, I sell my specialized knowledge in another industry, so I know what the other side of that economy is about.
Unfortunately, I'm learning that not everyone entertains the same standard of responsibility when selling that specialized knowledge. Live and learn.
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| PDXWesty wrote: |
This post just makes me shake my head. I've bitten my tongue until now and know I will regret this, but here goes. People complain about something not working and then blame others. "why didn't you tell me this would happen" Truth is you have completely changed the original design of the vehicle with different brakes, different wheels, different suspension, larger tires than was ever recommended for the van, then ask "why do my tires rub?"
It's because you changed everything.
Each componant taken individually may work, but the combination of possible componants makes it impossible for any vendor to let you know what will work with your van. Don't blame them for not doing your own homework. |
Actually, in the case of timichango, SmallCar changed everything. They sold it all as a professional package install if timi's report is to be held true.. Thier products. Thier work. And then said "we've never had reports of tire damage using these products"
In this case THEY did not do the homework.
I don't read timi "blaming" Smallcar. He has asked Smallcar to solve the problem. Maybe.. maybe 3/8" of spacer will prevent the tires hitting.
Won't know til they run it thru its paces.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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PDXWesty
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6247
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Timchango - I wasn't referring to your situation specifically, but to some of the comments I've read throughout this post. I'm not familiar with your entire story.
I just assume it's my responsibility to know what will be ok or not. When I was in high school, I went to a tire shop and had them put way over sized tires on my truck. The tire guy said he didn't recommend it but I insisted anyway. On the way out their drivway I rolled the fenders as I turned the wheels because there wasn't hardly any clearance.
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89 Westy 2.1 Auto |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| PDXWesty wrote: |
This post just makes me shake my head. I've bitten my tongue until now and know I will regret this, but here goes. People complain about something not working and then blame others. "why didn't you tell me this would happen" Truth is you have completely changed the original design of the vehicle with different brakes, different wheels, different suspension, larger tires than was ever recommended for the van, then ask "why do my tires rub?"
It's because you changed everything.
Each componant taken individually may work, but the combination of possible componants makes it impossible for any vendor to let you know what will work with your van. Don't blame them for not doing your own homework. |
That'd be true if the parts weren't sold to me as a complete system, and were picked by me individually without any thought to compatibility.
I'm not an automotive professional—and not even really an automotive hobbyist. I paid professionals for their 'expertise' in specifying a system that would work—effectively their role, in making a profit selling aftermarket goods as a system, is to do the homework you're describing and spec a combination that works. Otherwise, what exactly is their role or value proposition as a vanagon-specialized business?
I agree that it's unrealistic to think that any-old-combo of parts will work. But it's the role of the pros, making money in this (or any) niche, to make their living by providing options that will work, or being damned clear that they may not.
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| timichango wrote: |
I really don't want to deliberately rotate only to wind up with 4 damaged tires instead of 2... so a bit at a loss for how to assess this conclusively. There's got to be some way to simulate Snoop's theoretical 30,000' drop scenario...?
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One method is to remove the spring and manually move the tire/wheel thru its entire range of motion.
Remember that the shock (length) is the limiter top and bottom in travel in the OEM design.
On the droop, the radius contol arm will bind at just beyond where the OEM shock limits travel. This is a good thing as it prevents damage to all the other bits.. like balljoints, tie rod ends, etc.
This exercise is also good for verifying that the new brake lines do not bind or hit anywwhere thru the travel of the front suspension.
In my own processing, I found that the WORST postion for tire damage is turned out just a hair from straight.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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PDXWesty
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6247
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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This post just makes me shake my head. I've bitten my tongue until now and know I will regret this, but here goes. People complain about something not working and then blame others. "why didn't you tell me this would happen" Truth is you have completely changed the original design of the vehicle with different brakes, different wheels, different suspension, larger tires than was ever recommended for the van, then ask "why do my tires rub?"
It's because you changed everything.
Each componant taken individually may work, but the combination of possible componants makes it impossible for any vendor to let you know what will work with your van. Don't blame them for not doing your own homework.
_________________
89 Westy 2.1 Auto |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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I may be a victim of the Facebook age, but this forum really needs a 'like' button for forum responses.
It also very much needs a 'buy everyone a round of pints' button. That'd be great right about now.
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
If you are interested, there is a solution to this that you can handle yourself. It will be a little bit of a pain in the neck and it will take a little bit of your time, but in the end, you shouldn't be out much, if any, money. In other words, when it's all said and done, you should remain fairly close to your current investment.
This basically involves buying your own new wheels, having your current tires swapped over and selling your current wheels.
I am 100% willing to help you through this process free of charge if you are interested. Please send me email at the address below. |
You're amazing—that assessment puts me at ease somewhat, and I'll 100% take you up on your offer of help as soon as I've got the mental and financial bandwidth to pursue the avenue of resolution you're suggesting.
To clarify, though, do you reckon it's going to be possible to retain my existing tires (Nokian WRG2 215 65r16) with a different wheel (ie. that a different wheel width/offset will bring the tread in enough to make these work)? Given the outer tread damage, I'm pretty certain that selling the tires to recoup costs on that front is not an option. I'm happy to keep rollin'em if a change in rims is going to be enough to get them outta the way of the fender.
| j_dirge wrote: |
Depends on your outlook on life.
On the one hand you've learned a great deal about your van.. and you now know more than do many of the "professionals" regarding this particular desgn issue.
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Ain't it the truth. I know more than I ever wanted to at this stage... Just enough knowledge to be dangerous, as they say. 
| j_dirge wrote: |
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
I am 100% willing to help you through this process free of charge if you are interested. |
I'd not pass on that offer, timi! |
I surely won't. I hope the man likes scotch—I'll surely be sending him some before this saga is through.
| insyncro wrote: |
Yup, CLKs baby, all my vans have at least one set.
Great rim.
Finding them in original or decent condition is getting harder.
Aftermarket copies are available. |
Are the aftermarket CLKs as good as the originals / worth tracking down? Or better to hold out for a set of originals? What makes this particular rim superior to other mercedes/audi/vw rims? Just ease of fitment?
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| Sounds like the same old Small Car story. |
It's a bummer. The worst part is the low rumbling skepticism and anxiety that this is generating for me around the Subie conversion they did (which has, in fairness, been perfect thus far). But yeah, the way a company handles warranty issues on one front is usually consistent with how they'll handle others, and this issue—and the apparent inattention to detail—leaves me feeling a bit cold.
I mean, I get it—business is business, and caveat emptor, and all that, but given how apparently easy it would be for them to spec a different tire and wheel combo, I'm baffled at their insistence on trudging forward with this setup. Nobody wants to take a bath on product recalls and warranty, but IMHO generating goodwill is better for business in the long run.
| Altoona wrote: |
Soooo.....before we go too far down the SmallCar bashing road....did the bumpstops fix it?
It sounds like the 5 doughnut stops are what should have been on there - and if they fix the issue, then SmallCar is absolved of any wrongdoing since their statement that all the parts they choose would work together, is correct. If it doesn't, then..... |
Short answer—I don't know yet. Given the height of 2 donuts, vs. the depth of cut on my tires from previous impacts, it's hard to say, but I reckon the answer is no. Reduced, mitigated, maybe/probably. But I need to stick a crapload of ballast in the van and go hit some nasty driveways to be sure. And to be honest, I'm apprehensive about trying to deliberately cause more damage for diagnosis. Is there any way, short of hitting some bumps, to force the van into maximum suspension compression? Like a reverse-jack or something that pulls the van down to test suspension range?
Here's another complication: I've already lost a pile of rubber on the outer tread blocks, so in a sense my tires have already clearanced themselves on the fender lips somewhat. What happens when the wheels get rotated back to front, and I've got those treadblocks back on the front? I really don't want to deliberately rotate only to wind up with 4 damaged tires instead of 2... so a bit at a loss for how to assess this conclusively. There's got to be some way to simulate Snoop's theoretical 30,000' drop scenario...?
| snoop wrote: |
I bought a set of CLKs for $300, put undamaged tires on 'em and chalked it up to a learning experience (that harm that I could never imagine allowing my actions to cause in someone else's life is for others "business").
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I hear ya. I spec technology for my clients on a regular basis (I'm in the web biz), and on the odd occasions that I spec stuff that winds up not being appropriate, or working incorrectly, I operate from the stance that the onus is on me to replace my prescribed solution with something that performs as advertised. You're 100% right that this is a learning experience that different businesses/industries don't adopt this principle in equal measure.
| snoop wrote: |
Choose the Bodhisattva that is Christopher Schimke to help you.
It's going to get better, timi.
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Word.
_________________
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25
Last edited by timichango on Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 351
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| timichango wrote: |
I'm basically screwed. Right?
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Isn't vulture capitalism great  , wonder if Bain Capital owns SmallCar...at least the investors are happy 
Agree with everyone else that cutting your losses and getting some different wheels is the thing to do. That's what I did. I sold the ($1500 cost) 6 week old set of wheels and tires here on the Samba for $300 with full disclosure that they caused fender damage on my 2WD rig and that they might on others too. The good news is that your wheels very likely would not do so on a syncro...hopefully someone with a syncro would like your wheels.
I bought a set of CLKs for $300, put undamaged tires on 'em and chalked it up to a learning experience (that harm that I could never imagine allowing my actions to cause in someone else's life is for others "business").
Choose the Bodhisattva that is Christopher Schimke to help you.
It's going to get better, timi.
Peace,
mike
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Altoona
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2011
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Soooo.....before we go too far down the SmallCar bashing road....did the bumpstops fix it?
It sounds like the 5 doughnut stops are what should have been on there - and if they fix the issue, then SmallCar is absolved of any wrongdoing since their statement that all the parts they choose would work together, is correct. If it doesn't, then..... |
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