Preemptive Strike

BoneMachine · Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:10 am Post subject: Preemptive Strike

Earlier this year we bought an '85 Wolfsburg Weekender. We've trying to do all of the preemptive replacements and upgrades that we can, in anticipation of a cross country trip next year. It turns out that it has a 90/91 syncro transmission in it, installed by Ben up in Montreal back in '04. As tempting as it would be, I'm not going to install a locker, but will get a TBD. My question is, would it be wise to go ahead and have it rebuilt? I've read that you really should have the earlier trannys done, are the 90/91s prone failures over time?
Thanks
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'85 Wolfsburg Edition Westfalia Weekender, Zetec #36, w/ Peloquin TBD
'83.5 Westfalia, full camper (we'll never forget you)

IdahoDoug · Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:21 am Post subject:

Tough to call without information. Was the tranny rebuilt when installed and what was done? How many miles on the trans total? How has it been maintained since then? How is it driven with the added horsepower?

However, at the end of the day its still a tough question. Spending $4000 or more of your money is something you will need to be making the call on. The tranny will wear out, and when it does it is essentially a trip ender. With the added power, this will happen more quickly. Those are two observations that are fairly definite. How much and when to spend to avoid those events is up to you.

DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

geo_tonz · Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:20 am Post subject:

Logic dictates you should ask Ben! You have a rare advantage to know where the work was done and be able to contact him: (ftp2leta on this site) http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=32229.

Or his site: http://www.benplace.com/bjp3.htm.

GT
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Red Vanagon

"Ron Burgundy": 1991 Vanagon Multivan (Weekender) 2.1L Auto - Driver/Camper

r39o · Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Preemptive Strike

BoneMachine · Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject:

Thanks for all the replies.
I did contact Ben a couple of days ago. He remembers the job, but it turns out the tranny was supplied by the customer. So, he has no idea of the mileage/wear on the unit.
Even though the notes refer to it as a 'syncro' tranny, it's a four speed, no granny gear. From what I've read during 90/91 they used the casing that had the boss casting for a locker, which in this case is un-tapped.. The PO did say it came out of a syncro, so I'd have to assume it was a non-locker, four speed. Does that sound correct?
r39o, man I never feel that lucky. We've decided to not add the locker. For the type of driving I do with this van, it wouldn't be worth the expense. We're going to have Daryl do a rebuild and add the TBD. From all the reports I've read here about the TBD, that'll be the perfect upgrade.
Thanks again.
_________________
'85 Wolfsburg Edition Westfalia Weekender, Zetec #36, w/ Peloquin TBD
'83.5 Westfalia, full camper (we'll never forget you)

r39o · Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:14 pm Post subject:

If it is out of a syncro, then it has a low gear.

If not, then not.

A stock generic 4 speed costs about $1000 to rebuild.

Add for oil plates and other modifications.

Wholesale, mine was $1600 with a different 4th speed, SA oiling plates and various uprated parts.
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IdahoDoug · Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:28 pm Post subject:

I wonder if the "notes" are some past owner's notes and they were told by a used auto parts guy they bought it from that it was a "synchro" tranny. In the old days, a transmission description would read "full synchromesh transmission" or similar - indicating it had synchronizers on all gears, etc. This has been the case forever, but that's the only way I can imagine this. Intentionally putting a 4wd transmission in a 2wd vehicle would be odd, and I'd think it would be a bear to get the shift pattern to work with the wrong shifter box under the front floor. It's easy to see - just slide under and see if there is an elongated forward section with a flange that should be bolted to a driveshaft that isn't there.

DougM
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

davideric9 · Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:01 am Post subject:

seems like one photo would tell all, the syncro transaxle mounts differently than the 2wd and the nose cone is unmistakeable. May be possible to mount syncro trans without changing linkage to show low gear. Post the photo.
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1987 Syncro Westfalia, stock (bought 1994)
1986 Syncro Westfalia SVX, 3 knob (bought 2008)
1987 Westfalia (bought 2010)
1988 Wolfsburg GL (bought 2012)

r39o · Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:15 am Post subject:

IdahoDoug · Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:56 pm Post subject:

To the original post, yes the 4WD trans is subject to the same failure issues as the 2WD it is nearly identical to in key ways. What would I do if I had a Syncro 4WD trans under my 2WD that was acting up? I'd advertise the transmission for sale and take that money to purchase a nice rebuilt 2WD from AA in Portland. Or perhaps work a trade with them by sending in the increasingly hard to find trans you have for a common rebuilt 2WD and cash to make up the difference. You'd end up coming out financially ahead versus the VERY expensive rebuild process on your 4WD trans.

Either way, a simple picture would let you know if this is the situation, and satisfy the intensely curious - including me. Heh.

DougM
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

BoneMachine · Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject:

I've been getting my learn on and the only part of this tranny that is syncro is the case housing. It has the boss for the locker cast into it and that's the end of it. It has none of the gearing that a syncro requires.
My plan is to have Daryl rebuild the tranny and add the LSD/TBD. I'll keep this housing just in case we decide to add a locker some time down the road.
I really appreciate all of the input on this.
Thanks.
_________________
'85 Wolfsburg Edition Westfalia Weekender, Zetec #36, w/ Peloquin TBD
'83.5 Westfalia, full camper (we'll never forget you)

tencentlife · Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:37 am Post subject:

Back to the original question: 90/91 would not have had the deficient 3/4 slider in it from the factory, they caught their boo-boo and sometime in '89 changed to a redesigned (I should say "belatedly-properly-designed") part.

But Daryl will have the full run-down for you, you're in very good hands.
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IdahoDoug · Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:50 am Post subject:

Ah, so it is a 90/91 model year - assumed you were shortening "091/094" trans model. Missed that, Tencent. Updated 3/4 slider hubs modified but still failing and I'd still recommend an aftermarket (Weddel Racing, etc) one vs an updated VW part.

Also, I'm pretty sure the transmission casing (main one forward of the bell housing) was 100% shared which would mean the locker boss would be there for all 2WD housings. So this would still not indicate it is a Syncro trans. A Syncro trans will have an "094" stamp over top of the "091" stamp if you want to be sure about it. Can't recall where that stamp is located but I recall only seeing it once the trans is out.

If you in fact DO have a Syncro trans, be sure to address the forward vent, which would have no hose screwed into it and therefore be open to dirt intrusion.

DougM
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

tencentlife · Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:11 am Post subject:

insyncro · Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:59 am Post subject:

tencentlife · Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:34 am Post subject:

I don't doubt that the aftermarket ones are ultimately stronger, my point was really just that the late VW part had the early VW part's obvious design deficiency remedied by not square-cutting the three grooves, so it no longer had the extreme stress riser that pretty much guaranteed the early part would fail prematurely. I know that some of the late VW ones do eventually fail at high miles, but I don't consider 200k miles or so to be premature, by that kind of mileage if the slider isn't ready to go something else probably is, that's a lot of miles on any hard-working gearbox. I was chiding Doug (and gently, at least I hope it was taken that way) because it kind of seemed to me like he was suggesting tearing down a late trans just to put in the Weddle part, and my response is that by itself that would be insufficient reason to do so. Overhaul just to replace the early VW part? Yes, that would be wise. To do it when you have the late VW part? definitely not worth the expense unless there were other reasons to go into that box, such as overall high mileage.

All this is moot since the OP is having Daryl go thru the box already anyway, and as far as I know he and most others tend to install one of the strengthened aftermarket versions regardless. Anyway, the Big D will set everything straight.
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Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

insyncro · Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:49 am Post subject:

FYI, I have a late Syncro locker, unopened from new with 287,000 total miles on it in a 91 Syncro with an EG33 connected to it for just over 150,000 of those miles.
I tow and drive it loaded often....no slider issues as of yet.

Swepco has been in the trans for the last 150k and flushed regularly.

Another H6 I know of just roasted its tranny after a whopping 350 total miles....it was the burnouts that did it Exclamation

Treat them with respect and they will go many miles.


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