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RBEmerson
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2011
Posts: 2108
Location: SE PA
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 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| RBEmerson wrote: |
......
The cost of MMPT controllers is somewhat of a shaky number. That is, there are inexpensive controllers available but, as if often true, you get what you pay for. A good MPPT controller will probably cost at least the equivalent of a very good meal for two at some place much better than Ruby Tuesday.
That being said, the 10A floor is ...ah... open to reconsideration.  |
Ok, so max. 10A rating on MPPT output is overkill?
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No, quite the contrary - depending on the size and number of panels, as well as the sun angle (panels give the most output when perpendicular to the sun's rays), well over 10A is routine.
IIRC, the 10A figure was given as a "below this point, MPPT controllers aren't worth it". My point is that there's no hard and fast rule on this. It's more a matter of cost v. benefit which is something of a personal choice.
| Quote: |
Though my grey matter may not yield this, I'm studying up for my "Basic" Ham license, hoping to get 80+% (the latter allows HF use). I anticipate installing some kind of Ham rig, so that + my TF and lower battery voltage due to night use, might add up to more than a 5 Amp load (when transmitting.... with fridge door left open....  ) With this 95W panel, http://www.solar-electric.com/etso95wa12vo.html it seems the max. Amps is 5.13 Amps, but then even with an MPPT, I doubt that number would happen. i.e. maybe a 5A rated MPPT or PWM would suffice. |
Are you planning on a QRP (low power) rig or something heavier? If you want real power, you need some serious (e.g., at least 200 a/h and preferably at least double that) battery power and you should plan on working only at the upper end of the battery charge. For example, my 150 watt marine SSB (Icom IC-M802, also ham capable) pulls down a lot of current when transmitting (fused at 35A)
| Quote: |
| In terms of quality, it seems to me that some charge controller makers are "ma & pa" type set ups. Maybe some actually make their products in-house which might allow for better QC? i.e. from Solar Controllers Inc. FAQ" |
I suppose, but companies like Blue Sky or Morningstar are hardly "ma & pa" companies. As always, the wise consumer does some research before buying.
[...]
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10367
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Much thanks RBEmerson
At the very least, will run substantial + wire behind cabinets (they're out currently) for future loads. Not sure what rig I'll run. Depends on my mark! If I qualify for HF, maybe I could get away with a lower power rig for night time DX. Then again, the main reason for a rig would be for comm if out of cell phone range. I don't know enough about transceivers yet. And now I'm getting mostly OT.
I see what you mean re amperage rating of a charge controller. I need to clearly ID my electrical needs. If I'm into 2 panels, the $ difference between MPPT and PWM could be spent on metering or at the very least, a flexible properly rated PWM controller. ..... as has already been suggested or inferred.
Neil.
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RBEmerson
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2011
Posts: 2108
Location: SE PA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| Much thanks RBEmerson |
You're welcome!
| Quote: |
| At the very least, will run substantial + wire behind cabinets (they're out currently) for future loads. Not sure what rig I'll run. Depends on my mark! |
Depending on the length of the run, you're looking at 10 AWG at a minimum and more likely heavier. Even over a relatively short run, voltage drop at this current level matters.
| Quote: |
| If I qualify for HF, maybe I could get away with a lower power rig for night time DX. Then again, the main reason for a rig would be for comm if out of cell phone range. I don't know enough about transceivers yet. And now I'm getting mostly OT. |
Time to do some serious homework here.
| Quote: |
I see what you mean re amperage rating of a charge controller. I need to clearly ID my electrical needs. If I'm into 2 panels, the $ difference between MPPT and PWM could be spent on metering or at the very least, a flexible properly rated PWM controller. ..... as has already been suggested or inferred.
Neil. |
Er, PWM is almost certain to be a major RFI source. And you won't be getting the most out of your panel.
Metering... unless you want to get involved with "Amp-hours used" monitors (e.g., Xantrex Link Pro or Link Lite), a simple ammeter and voltmeter will do you.
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10367
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| RBEmerson wrote: |
| Quote: |
... the $ difference between MPPT and PWM could be spent on metering or at the very least, a flexible properly rated PWM controller. ..... as has already been suggested or inferred.
Neil. |
Er, PWM is almost certain to be a major RFI source. And you won't be getting the most out of your panel.
Metering... unless you want to get involved with "Amp-hours used" monitors (e.g., Xantrex Link Pro or Link Lite), a simple ammeter and voltmeter will do you. |
Edit:
| RBEmerson wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If I qualify for HF, maybe I could get away with a lower power rig for night time DX. ..... |
Time to do some serious homework here.
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Yes! I have been! It's tougher than I thought. hamstudy.com is helping. I'm scoring in the high 70's on the test generator but I haven't done this kind of studying in DECADES so.....
Yes! Thanks for reminder. Forgot about the RF interference issue. And yes; had thought to install a meter or two. Thanks.
Neil.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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jmranger
Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2010
Posts: 701
Location: Quebec
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| With this 95W panel, http://www.solar-electric.com/etso95wa12vo.html it seems the max. Amps is 5.13 Amps, but then even with an MPPT, I doubt that number would happen. i.e. maybe a 5A rated MPPT or PWM would suffice. |
I just put my 45W panel in full sun today, and I got a short-circuit current about 5% above the specified amount. So yes, this happens.
Also, make sure where the measurement is taken for the rating. 5A on the panel side (before the MPPT has it's chance to convert volt into amps) isn't the same as 5A on the battery side. |
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presslab
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Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| RBEmerson wrote: |
| Er, PWM is almost certain to be a major RFI source. |
MPPT uses PWM too (Pulse Width Modulation). MPPT adds a large inductor so RFI could potentially be even greater than simple PWM. But then again the simple PWM controller will cause current surges in the wires going to the battery. Both types will have RFI, I don't think this should be a point of contention though.
On the "shaded panel" problem, as mentioned it's complicated. Some panels have individual bypass diodes per cell; not many do though. In this case, as long as the overall voltage is still above battery voltage, either MPPT or PWM controller will still charge. Most all MPPT controllers just have a "buck converter", so input voltage needs to be higher than the output. In fact in this condition a PWM controller will close the efficiency gap.
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RBEmerson
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Joined: November 05, 2011
Posts: 2108
Location: SE PA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, the Blue Sky SB6024 is silent on my SSB radio. I wish I could say as much for an old Heart inverter/charger. 
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pushkick
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Joined: August 09, 2007
Posts: 1366
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: mppt vs. pwm |
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what most people dont realize is that if you go with pwm and you use
solar panels with higher voltages the pwm will not work as efficiently as mppt or may not work at all. you can use any voltage panels with the mppt and the larger panels and higher voltage panels are usually cheaper/watt than the 12 volt panels (36 cell).
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: mppt vs. pwm |
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| pushkick wrote: |
| ....mppt and the larger panels and higher voltage panels are usually cheaper/watt than the 12 volt panels (36 cell). |
Think grid tie panels here.
Last year I bought 50w mono 48v nominal panels for less than a dollar per watt. That was a smoking deal at the time and is about what you pay now.
The higher voltage panels make a lot of sense and is the reason I use a 150 v MPPT controller.
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
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mappley
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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When I get around to solarizing my westy I'll probably get this:
http://www.amazon.com/MISOL-regulator-remote-display-Controller/dp/B008JNJ2RW
For the panel array I'd maximize the voltage, meaning I could use thinner gauge wire from array to the multiple power point tracking (mppt) charge controller, maximizing the controllers effectiveness. (Where mppt really shines is with a high voltage solar array to a lower voltage battery bank.)
To maximize the voltage you could either buy high voltage panels, or wire lower voltage panels in series, ie. pos lead to negative lead, like batteries in a flashlight. This controller accepts input voltage of up to 100 vdc. Could be overkill, but too much power? that's a problem I can work around.
I have no experience with the above model, could be poop- but for the price, which includes a cool little display screen and lots of buttons ( oooh- buttons) I'm willing to suggest it as an option.
For the batteries I want to go with a 120 amp hour AGM sealed cell tower battery. Shaped more like a very large book than a brick, they are zero maintenance and can be mounted thin and tall (mirrored closet) or flat and wide (under couch). Might even mount under chassis.
Hope this was helpfull- |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| mappley wrote: |
When I get around to solarizing my westy I'll probably get this:
http://www.amazon.com/MISOL-regulator-remote-display-Controller/dp/B008JNJ2RW
For the panel array I'd maximize the voltage, meaning I could use thinner gauge wire from array to the multiple power point tracking (mppt) charge controller, maximizing the controllers effectiveness. (Where mppt really shines is with a high voltage solar array to a lower voltage battery bank.)
To maximize the voltage you could either buy high voltage panels, or wire lower voltage panels in series, ie. pos lead to negative lead, like batteries in a flashlight. This controller accepts input voltage of up to 100 vdc. Could be overkill, but too much power? that's a problem I can work around.
I have no experience with the above model, could be poop- but for the price, which includes a cool little display screen and lots of buttons ( oooh- buttons) I'm willing to suggest it as an option.
For the batteries I want to go with a 120 amp hour AGM sealed cell tower battery. Shaped more like a very large book than a brick, they are zero maintenance and can be mounted thin and tall (mirrored closet) or flat and wide (under couch). Might even mount under chassis.
Hope this was helpfull- |
You can get that controller and monitor panel for less on eBay or at http://www.yoosmart.com
I have the 10A version. See my earlier posts to this thread.
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10367
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Been doing some more reading/research.
re: EPsolar controllers.
I was curious if this Viewstar PWM controller
http://www.yoosmart.com/vs2024n-20a-solar-charge-controller-12v-24v.html
was made by EPsolar. Seems so:
http://www.epsolarpv.com/en/index.php/Product/pro_content/id/166/am_id/136
Googling "Viewstar" or "EPsolar" gets lots of hits for company websites and youtube vidoes selling this stuff but few independent reviews.
I know r39o has been happy with his EPsolar MPPT, but have others been happy with the QC of their EPsolar PWM controller?
Is it true that an MPPT controller will track best when connected to matching panel types/size as opposed to being connected to mismatched solar panel types? (mono and poly panel)
Neil.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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jstar89crx
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Joined: September 19, 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Bellingham WA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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I went with this controller to go with 100W grape solar mono panel. Very very pleased with the setup. Genasun GV-10, best price I found was at the ALT E website.
http://genasun.com/all-products/solar-charge-contr...ontroller/
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10367
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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I see they also have one for flooded lead cell batteries:
http://genasun.com/all-products/solar-charge-contr...ontroller/
Seems their controller draws less power than most at 0.9 mA.
And from their web page:
"High-Speed MPPT: Always on Target
Not all Maximum Power Point Tracking controllers were created equally. Most use a sweep and sleep method that scans the entire voltage range every 30-60 seconds. That's okay for a clear day, but traditional controllers are constantly off target during changing cloud conditions – exactly when power is scarce and needs the most. Genasun controllers adapt to changing light conditions 20 times every second. ..."
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jstar89crx
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Joined: September 19, 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Bellingham WA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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I have mine hooked up to a 4D AGM under the back seat and it also charges the flooded start battery through a Blue Sea ACR.
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SOLD:91 Westy, BEW TDI with VNT17 Turbo, water cooled intercooler, Malone Tune, taller 3rd and 4th. |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| jstar89crx wrote: |
| I have mine hooked up to a 4D AGM under the back seat and it also charges the flooded start battery through a Blue Sea ACR. |
Which controller is that?
I am going see if I tacan get a timing rate of PV input for the EPSolar Tracer MPPT controllers.
As an aside: WOW, where you mount that 4D monster?
Pictures or it ain't real.....
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
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jstar89crx
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Joined: September 19, 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Bellingham WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to take the post on a tangent but, to mount the 4D I blew out the under seat heater since that is where my Webasto outlet is and the factory heater was never used.
Battery along with new face frame with factory heater outlet deleted.
Charger controller and ACR above battery.
Fuse Block
Webasto control board and TDI ECM and relays.
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