| Author |
Message |
Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
|
 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:38 am Post subject: Spring plate bushing replacement |
 |
|
Searched for quite a few related terms, also looked on Greg Porters youtube channel and did not see the topic there...
I need to replace my spring plate bushings. The originals are beginning to affect rear wheel camber. I've got the new bushings, inner and outer, but the Bently manual does not address bushing replacement. There is one photo that gives me some clues, but that is all. I normally tear into a job and figure it out as I go, but thought I'd play safe with this one because of risks involved. Does anyone know of a video or or other guide for this specific job? Bushings are the soft black poly bushings (not the harder red ones), BugPack part numbers 6588-23 and 6587-21.
Any guidance would be appreciated...
Paul |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
John Moxon 
Samba Moderator
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 13957
Location: Southampton U.K.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cseay1
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2012
Posts: 1341
Location: Elkwood VA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cseay1
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2012
Posts: 1341
Location: Elkwood VA
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
although this is on a Bus, it is a good video about using the commercially available VW spring plate tool. Treat the spring plate the same way you would treat a loaded gun. Lots of folks have gotten broken hands or worse from being careless with these things.
Link
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have not checked out the video yet, but this one you found above is helpful because they actually change the bushings as a part of the project. All the other info I found was for adjusting the spring plates only with no mention of the bushings other than removing the outer one to get it out of the way.
And yes, working with suspension parts can be like playing with a loaded gun, which is why I wanted to do some research when the Bently information was inadequate for this task. I normally don't let a shop touch our vehicles, but used to have them do strut replacements years ago. That ended when a shop removed a strut the wrong way and it released, BREAKING the axle! Thankfully the technician was not injured. Then they forgot to tighten the top nuts and damaged some other stuff. Needless to say, I do my own struts now  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the links John. Those are similar to what I had found, but I'm sure there may be some relevant information I can glean.
By the way, it seems that removing the drum is not mandatory by some of the procedures (see photo), and that the drum and hub assembly can be shifted out of the way. Is that correct?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2506
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Altema wrote: |
| By the way, it seems that removing the drum is not mandatory by some of the procedures (see photo), and that the drum and hub assembly can be shifted out of the way. Is that correct? |
Yes, no need to remove the drum...it'll swing away far enough to get the spring plate off. This isn't a really difficult job but you do need to be careful when removing the spring plate. I used a floor jack to support it as I pried it away from the torsion bar, then slowly lowered it to relieve the spring tension once the plate was out past the lower stop. Sometimes the torsion bar will want to come out with the plate...it's better if you can prevent that from happening. Mark the relative position of the spring plate to the torsion bar so that it can be indexed properly when reassembled. When putting it all back together, use plenty of real talcum powder on the rubber bushings to help reduce friction. Use some longer bolts to draw the cover on over the outer bushing, then replace with the stock ones after it's in place.
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
c21darrel
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is Great advice!!
"Mark the relative position of the spring plate to the torsion bar so that it can be indexed properly when reassembled. When putting it all back together, use plenty of real talcum powder on the rubber bushings to help reduce friction. Use some longer bolts to draw the cover on over the outer bushing, then replace with the stock ones after it's in place." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cool karmann collected
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
When I got mine apart, I found the torsion bushing cover was quite corroded on the inside. New ones are available but they don't have the four 10mm spacers that the originals have so these need to 'recovered' somehow, either that or get busy on the lathe and turn some new ones!
No need to remove the drum to do this job, it will (just) swing up and out of the way. You may find that replacing the bushes doesn't have that much effect on the camber, mine still wears the inside portion of tyre tread before the outside. I had to re-index the drivers side several inner and outer splines on the torsion bar to take account of the additional twist set into the bar from the car probably not having a passenger most of the time, at least not in the 23,000 miles I've put on it 
Ant |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quick question, how long should the longer bolts be? An additional inch?
Paul |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2506
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Altema wrote: |
| Quick question, how long should the longer bolts be? An additional inch? |
It's been a while since I did mine but I think an inch longer (25mm) should do it. The holes that these cover bolts screw into go clean thru, so you can use even longer bolts if you wish. If a hardware store isn't real close by, you might want to get some that're 25mm longer and some that're a little longer...maybe 30-35mm longer...in case you need the extra length.
Remember to use plenty of talc to cut the stickiness of the rubber.
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cseay1
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2012
Posts: 1341
Location: Elkwood VA
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
a really nice exploded view
.. although for some reason the inner bushings are not shown as they are here
Last edited by cseay1 on Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:49 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| rcooled wrote: |
| Altema wrote: |
| Quick question, how long should the longer bolts be? An additional inch? |
It's been a while since I did mine but I think an inch longer (25mm) should do it. The holes that these cover bolts screw into go clean thru, so you can use even longer bolts if you wish. If a hardware store isn't real close by, you might want to get some that're 25mm longer and some that're a little longer...maybe 30-35mm longer...in case you need the extra length.
Remember to use plenty of talc to cut the stickiness of the rubber. |
Ok, thanks. It will be rainy all week long, so this is a good time to do it. My new bushings are poly, the softer black ones that come with that nasty grease! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cseay1 wrote: |
| a really nice exploded view |
Yes, that is really nice. Thanks! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cseay1
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2012
Posts: 1341
Location: Elkwood VA
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
swing axle uses two VW 311-511-245 and two VW 311-511-246 (note they kind of look the same, but the number and placement of dots is different)
IRS uses one VW 311-511-245, one VW 311-511-246, and two VW 111-511-245E
there seems to be some confusion between catalogs as to which bushing goes where .. what do the dots mean? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2506
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cseay1 wrote: |
| ...what do the dots mean? |
The dots are for orientation of the lugs...they should be at the 12:00 position when installed.
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cseay1
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2012
Posts: 1341
Location: Elkwood VA
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rcooled wrote: |
| cseay1 wrote: |
| ...what do the dots mean? |
The dots are for orientation of the lugs...they should be at the 12:00 position when installed. |
How do you determine which is left inner, left outer, right inner, right outer?
-245 has a single raised dot .. I have seen this is left hand inner on IRS, left hand inner and right hand outer on swing axle (although I have seen conflicts on this listing)
-246 has two raised dots .. I have seen this is right hand inner on IRS, right hand inner and left hand outer on swing axle (again .. I see conflicts in catalog listings) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2506
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cseay1 wrote: |
| How do you determine which is left inner, left outer, right inner, right outer? |
I've done this on both a swing axle and IRS but don't remember it being so confusing. I'm at work now and don't have time to dig into it but if nobody comes up with an answer, I'll see what I can find and get back to you.
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'll just match the orientation of the original ones with the lugs. Can someone let me know what orientation I should put the round ones without the lugs?
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, woke up to ice chips hitting the window thanks to Sandy, so I knew it was not going to be a "Ghia Day" as we like to call clear days in our house. I was beat from work, but I figured I would start anyway. Rather than rehash instructions, I'll just note some things that I have not seen mentioned, or that were just interesting.
1. On double spring plate IRS suspensions, there are four bolts holding the hub assembly to the spring plate: Three bolts that go all the way through with nuts, and one short bolt that clamps the outer spring plate to the hub assembly, with the hole being threaded and no nut. The short bolt is great for locking things in place when you get the position correct for re-assembly.
2. Two of the bolts are difficult to get out of their holes after the nut was removed because the bolt head hit the diagonal arm. I had to move the washer next to the spring plate, then tap the bolts out using a mallet and punch.
3. Using a jack stand to support the drum worked well, as did scribing the outline of the spring plate using a scratch awl.
4. I also marked the angle that the spring plate rested at after being taken off the stop, and this was perfect because the inner torsion bar splines separated first.
5. Getting the spring plate down over the stop was more difficult than expected. I bent my biggest screwdriver!
6. The outer splines were stuck, and I had to hold them so there was pressure from my hand pulling the bar, and a mallet tapping the outer housing off.
7. The inner splines had hardened grease in the grooves, which I removed with a disposable fork tine. Giving the ends a shot of WD-40 made them slip in much easier!
8. The torsion bars have a parting line?!? Perhaps it's a two part forging?
9. The inner bushing has the knobs, and they only go in one way. The taper on poly bushings goes with the thin side in, the thick side out. The outer bushing has the thick side in, and the thin side out.
I had to use a thin bolt and a clamp to get the outer cover in place because the hardware store closed. The cover was hitting the body on one corner, so I un-bolted the body bolt on the shock tower to get some clearance. I also took the opportunity to adjust the ride height, since mine had the typical driver's side lower than the passenger side issue. I thought the adjustment was too high, but when it was all done and I jounced the car, it settled down to a level position with both rears being even height now. I was too tired to do the other side tonight, so I'll save that for tomorrow.
Paul |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
