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T4 1.7 refesh/rebuild
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WI sportmobile
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: T4 1.7 refesh/rebuild Reply with quote

Hi folks,
I pulled the engine out of my 73 last week end to fix some issues over the winter. This will be my first engine tear down/ build. I have the Bentley and Wilson books but I anticipate having a few questions along the way so I thought Iíd start a new thread. Itís a t4 1700, it had good compression and there was no loss of power, but after a couple bouts with gas in the oil it developed some leaks. The valves became very loud on #1 and it has developed a dull clunking sound when idling. I did a full tune up but it didnít seem to resolve and of my issues. SoÖ time to tear it down and see if I can find the smoking gun. Iím hoping I can reuse the P&Cs since the compression is good, and have new valves put in the heads. If not Iíll go to an 1800 and have the heads fly cut. Here are a couple of general engine photos, the 1,2 side head and the pistons and cylinders I hope to reuse. I havenít measured them yet, still waiting for a mic. and a scale. I plan on splitting the case tonight.
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Any thoughts, comments or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Martin
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Last edited by WI sportmobile on Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See what it looks like inside, someone's been in there before going by the plugged gallerys and it looks like they used the good stuff for the rebuild. I'd try to recycle as much of the genuine stuff as you can as alot of replacement parts are sub par these days.
Don't go mixing up any lifter or piston/cylinders.
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old DKP driver
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: rebuilt or not Reply with quote

As Busdaddy said: take your time tearing it down so you can use as many
parts that can be saved.
First off the "CB" case has Unknown and NOT factory lettering/numbers
so,its a rebuild from who knows where.
Notice how the 108210 is not inline with the CB....AND, the gold coloring
is not even the right color for a Factory rebuild that for quite a long
time were done in Canada.

Also the galley plugs were not factory and, appears the builder had to find
another plug that does not match the 2 aluminum ones.

Put the flywheel back on and torque the bolts to 85 ft# and check endplay before going any farther.
Most importantly.... fix your fuel problem Idea or all the work will be useless.carbs,fuel pressure pump.

The head you removed looks like it's only been on for a short time and, the
Mahle pistons are getting hard to find.
Let us know more after you pull a rod off and check the bearing wear.
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WI sportmobile
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the comments fellas. Yeah I knew it had been rebuilt before. When I bought it the ad said "rebuilt motor less than 4k miles" but we all know what that can mean. I really hope I can keep this a refresh and just replace the bearings, seals and valves. But I want that smoking gun.

BD: each cam lifter has it's own bag. Lots of zip lock bags for parts so far, about 50 to 100 Shocked I hope my sharpie doesn't run out of ink.

DKP: Too late to put the fly wheel back on... Just split the case. I did address the fuel issue by installing a shut off valve and a regulator but the damage was already done. Will reset the floats and maybe look into other options like solenoid shut offs.
Checked the side clearance on the rods. 0.015 in. just inside the tolerance?
Also looked a little closer at the othe pistons. two of them have dings like this and the other three have the logo ground off and a different type of markings on top?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Guess there was no need to point out the ding after I looked at the pic on screen.
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old DKP driver
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:38 pm    Post subject: rebuild Reply with quote

That's fine as you seem to be paying attention to detail.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: rebuild Reply with quote

old DKP driver wrote:
That's fine as you seem to be paying attention to detail.


x2.

Take lots of notes and photos, plus refer to the book for specs. You will be fine. What you don't know or understand, people here will be happy to help with.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I visually inspected the cam, crank, bearings and removed the rods tonight.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Noticed what seem to be stress cracks on the interior of the case around the studs.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This area here is either cracked or this is a casting mark. There is a large burr on the left side. Not really sure what to think about it. It seems to head up the side of the lifter hole but doesn't go all the way through. Sorry lifter hole isn't a very technical term, take a look.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure does look like cracks in both pictures. the top one in the #2 head studs.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a look at the cam and cam bearings. I keep looking but I still can't seem to find a + or- on the gear?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I couldn't get a good picture of the wear on the toe's, but there is a definite uneven wear pattern that has a dimension when I run my fingernail across them. Also the bearings show uneven wear.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


All and all the cam doesn't look like shit but it is worn. Should I look into having it re ground with the lifters or should I get a new set? Like I said, so far this is all a visual inspection.
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Last edited by WI sportmobile on Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desertbusman wrote:
Sure does look like cracks in both pictures. the top one in the #2 head studs.


Should I be looking for a new case or weld them up? They aren't apperent on the outside and I'm not sure if welding inside the case is the best idea?

BTW thats the left 3,4 side.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would send the case to the machine shop and hot tank it. Have them check out the cracks. A good hot tanking does wonders Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I found a couple of local shops that do machine work and will be calling them this week about the case. Iím also thinking of bringing in my crank and fly wheel for measurement and having them dynamically balanced. Iíll have to ask them about cleaning or reconditioning my pistons and cylinders. (Is there a term for this? I know I saw it somewhere in a thread but Iím on search over load right now.) I have to say neither of the local places work on VWs that often. They are big into muscle cars and the ilk.

Also Iíve been trying to understand the specs on cams and Iím totally confused. Can anyone shed some light on what a stock 1.7 would have? Iím starting to think that a new cam is a good idea after looking at the lifters and their lack of wear.
Any help would be great, especially what the specs for a ďstockĒ cam should be.
Martin
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bump

Could use some help with cam selection. Would the web cam stock t4 cam be a good option for my 1700?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WI sportmobile wrote:
Bump

Could use some help with cam selection. Would the web cam stock t4 cam be a good option for my 1700?


Unless $ are an issue I wouldn't use the stock cam.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: cam selection Reply with quote

I take the case has been checked out and you also had the galley plugs
removed and reinstalled After cleaning and the inspection was done?
and the "Cracks were just casting flaws"..
As far as cam selection is concerned you can go stock or upgrade to a mild
cam & lifters.
www.cbperformance.com $$
www.webcamshafts.com also has great mild cams available.$$$
depending on your budget .

My choice for Budget would be a Mild 2201 cam and lifter set up from
cb performance.
also,did the machine shop that rebuilt the heads also replace the valve springs at the same time....You also will need a cam gear and bolts.

What carbs will you run ? what fuel pump?what compression ratio?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the input.

old DKP: What do you mean by "mild" ? I'm interested in the web cams but don't know which one to get. Or how the specs effect overall performance.

I haven't brought the case in anywhere yet, Still haven't decided who to trust with it here in town. Also The heads haven't been rebuilt since I've owned the bus. I'm thinking of sending them to Headflow Masters but I want to decide on the cam and lifters first. The stock gear on the cam is in good shape and I think I can still use it with a new shaft.

As far as carbs go I have a newer set of 34 icts that I plan on using.

Any thoughts?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are staying with stock valves sizes, stock muffler and Compression Ratio then the "Stock" cam from Webcam is the best option with those little carbs.
If you want a little more hp go with 42x36 valves and the Web73 but its pushing it with those little carbs.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be concerned about the pistons and liners being mix and match.
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* VW Buses and VW cars share many of the same systems but if you haven't owned a bus and maintained it for awhile, you really don't know how different it is.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to suggest that you get this book here, it's called AIRCOOLED VW ENGINE INTERCHANGE MANUAL by Keith Seume And you can learn all about cams and how they work and what is best for vw engines. http://www.amazon.com/Aircooled-Engine-Interchange-Manual-Aftermarket/dp/0760303142 I looked into the cams and they say in the book that stock cams in vw's are choosen by VW to be a perfect match for the bus. If you change the cam for one with more valve lift you can get more fuel and air into the engine but without better flowing heads and exhaust, it isn't needed. The stock cam is made to make torque at the lower rpm levels a bus drives at most of the time, and a race cam means keeping the rpms higher to get the power and torque. It's a good read folks. Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you ever figure out where you were leaking oil from? I had the same problem with gas in my oil caused by weber ICT's.

And, now I have an oil leak too. It's coming from the rear of the engine, my guess is the crank seal by the fan. Not a quick fix it.
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