Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
DIY-Cold weather, front heater solution
Page: 1, 2, 3  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jtrashy
Samba Member


Joined: November 27, 2005
Posts: 117
Location: SF, CA
jtrashy is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: DIY-Cold weather, front heater solution Reply with quote

I have a syncro with a 1.8T conversion. I previously owned a syncro suby 2.2 conversion. In both engines the front heat would turn luke warm while in cold temperatures driving at low RPMs, ie idle, low speed snow, downhill grades. Not an ideal situation when the family is cold and the windshield is fogging up. Stephan at SAH told me about a circulation pump to install inline with the front heater hose to remedy the situation. Its works amazing, one of the best cold weather mods---yes equal to the propex! hence this writeup. As I was playing with a temp gun this morning, at idle the temp out of the floor vents was ~78'. I flipped the switch for the pump and within 30 seconds it was 110' and climbing.

There are a number of ways to mount this arrangement, the following is how I did it. I mounted the pump on the shifter box above the spare tire. A solid mount and perfect access to hoses, allowing clean hose connections. The hose connections are pretty straight forward. You want to attach the pump inline on the return(cold) hose which is the hose without the valve on it as it exits the floor. This will be obvious as you look from under the van. If not then run the engine and feel for the cold(er) hose behind/above the radiator fan.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The wires run through the floor behind the gas pedal. 16 gauge wire for both the + and ground wires with a 15 amp fuse. I found an ignition powered slot on the fuse/relay panel for the supply. I initially wanted the switch below the front heater fan switch but the ducting proved to be problematic with the switch connections so I moved in over to the left, see photo. A more visible spot would be better as to not leave it running when not needed.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The Supply list is as follows--

**Pump, wiring plug, and mounting hardware -
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/product_info.php?pr...709a201a62

**switch - some type of toggle switch
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?produc...agpspn=pla

2' -5/8 heater hose
2 -5/8" hose clamps, 4 if no coupling already in place
1 - 5/8" heater hose coupling, if you dont already have...see pic for reference
1 - inline Fuse holder, 15 amp fuse
4' - red 16 ga wire
4' - black 16 ga wire
various wire connectors
2 -#10x1/2" metal screws
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
denwood
Samba Member


Joined: July 29, 2012
Posts: 1047
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
denwood is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A great addition to the current "winter front thread". No one mentioned this solution. Insulating the heater hoses should improve things further.
_________________
Cheers,
Dennis Wood
The Grape
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
danfromsyr
Samba Member


Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 12204
Location: Syracuse, NY
danfromsyr is online now 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did insulte my heater supply not the return line and the heat is hella hot Wink well worth the $3 and effort to crawl under the van...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Christopher Schimke
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5132
Location: PNW
Christopher Schimke is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, great minds think alike! I was just planning on doing the exact some thing...location, exact pump, everything. However, I managed to solve my 1.8T heating issue another way...by installing a new heater core.

If the heater core is the slightest bit plugged, it will restrict the flow to the core which is especially noticeable during low RPMs. This can be problematic not just to the heat in the cabin, but also to the warm up of the engine.

The heater circuit exists the head, flows through the heater core(s) and then feeds back to the thermostat. If there is little or no coolant flow through the heater circuit, the thermostat won't open when it is supposed to.
During extended driving, the engine eventually gets warm enough to open the thermostat and you have decent heat. But when you come to a stop, even briefly, the flow through the heater circuit stops and the thermostat is fed a very cold shot of coolant coming straight from the radiator. With no warm coolant from the heater circuit to mix with the cold coolant from the radiator, the thermostat almost instantly closes. Now, when you proceed back up to speed and the engine RPM rise, the thermostat is closed (or mostly closed), so the heat in the cabin drops until the engine heats up enough at the thermostat to allow it to open again.
When sitting at idle, or very low RPM, there just wasn't enough warm coolant flow through the heater circuit to keep the thermostat open properly. This is partially due to the restricted flow through the heater core.

I discovered this over this past weekend. Watching the scangauge and feeling the air from the core, I could drive at 55mph for 15 minutes without feeling any heat, yet my engine temps were up around 272F. Previously, I attributed the very high temps to the fact that the switch is right off the back of the head, when in reality it was simply the fact that the thermostat wasn't being fed enough warm coolant due to a partially plugged heater core.

This is the same heater core that was in place with the WBX and there were no heating problems. I always had plenty of heat, so there was no indication of any problem. By installing a new heater core, I now have full heat all the time, even at idle, and the engine warms up quicker (thermostat opens at 245F now) and stays more consistent during idle.

I'm not saying that installing the auxiliary pump in the heater circuit is a bad thing. In fact, I may still do the same thing in the future since it's obvious that the 1.8T water pump is right on the ragged edge of being able to pump enough coolant through the heater circuit as is. I just wanted to point out that a new heater core really helps and that there can be more detriment to the engine without proper flow besides just not having enough heat in the cabin.
_________________
Christopher

*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
denwood
Samba Member


Joined: July 29, 2012
Posts: 1047
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
denwood is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christopher, that's what I was alluding to in the thermostat discussion taking place on the winter front thread. The bypass/heater circuit can flow unpredictably (not based on my direct observation, just theory and some reading) depending on engine rpm, and hose routing. If indeed the oil cooler reverses flow during warming/ cooling mode then there is more going on in the routing than meets the eye.

The WBX water pump, heater circuit and bypass must take all that extra volume in the heater circuit into account. Your 1.8T though uses a pump/plumbing design that assumes a very short heater path.

Likely not worth the effort, but a comparison between the WBX water pump and hose routing vs the 1.8T might yield some interesting insight. Would be great to hear from someone out there who works in this design field.
_________________
Cheers,
Dennis Wood
The Grape
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jtrashy
Samba Member


Joined: November 27, 2005
Posts: 117
Location: SF, CA
jtrashy is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting.......My heater is new as of last winter, so in my case the water pump just cant quite get it to the front.

The outside temps Im referencing are 10-30' F with significant decrease in front heat.

The circulation pump project took me about 2 hours....oh so toasty.

Chris...I think you would still be psyched to have the pump based on the huge improvement I experienced.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Christopher Schimke
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5132
Location: PNW
Christopher Schimke is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jtrashy wrote:


Chris...I think you would still be psyched to have the pump based on the huge improvement I experienced.



Yeah, I don't doubt that one bit. Like said, it's really obvious that the water pump on these just capable of moving much fluid at idle. The lowest temps that I have been thus far with the new heater core is about 40F, but I can see how temps below 30F could be much more of an issue. I guess my point with the above post was that without good flow through the heater circuit, there is more to the effects than just the amount of heat (or lack therof) that you get in the cabin.
_________________
Christopher

*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bluefirefly
Samba Member


Joined: March 16, 2011
Posts: 438
Location: Calgary, Ab
bluefirefly is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to Justin, I did the mod and put it to test last night.
Kinda cold right now, got under -20 Celsius (-4F) yesterday.

Without the pump, it is even not worth talking about it, got the 1.8l G60 in the back, no heat at all in front (may be after a long drive, idling and low fan speed, front air intake totaly closed with duct tape), rear heater is working well but not well enough to heat the whole van (7 pass).
Pump on, heat coming in less than 10sec, miracle.
After a while, I turned the pump off when driving and the front air is ice cold under a minute.
I knew the heater front core was good because I didn't have this problem with the WBX and I plumbed the coolant system like it was in the Corrado.

Never had a problem with overheating at idle, even in summer, my only problem was heat in winter. Water pump was new at time of conversion.

Of course, with both fan at the max, motor temp got barely to 80 Celsius on the highway and 60 Celsius max in town but we are warm inside the van.

Anyway, as Justin said, a must do on converted van up North!
_________________
86 Syncro Tintop G60
work in progress ...as always!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Crankey
Samba Member


Joined: July 11, 2004
Posts: 2043

Crankey is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

makes me wonder what is it about the wbx pump that makes it do so much better.

is it the pump itself or the plumbing path ? it seems like most engine swaps end up with less plumbing in the engine bay.

I really want to jump on my heater plumbing but the holiday weekend has too much other stuff going on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
Californio
Samba Member


Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 842

Californio is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny, I just bought one of those pumps to solve the exact same problem with my Tiico.

I was thinking of wiring it directly to the rear blower motor switch, with a relay of course, so as to avoid having another switch on the dash. Why the rear? because it always gets hot faster, and you don't feel the cold air before it heats up, whereas if you had to turn on the front fan to get the pump going, it might be a bit colder.

That looks like a coil mount you have there holding it on, true?

In any case, going down hills in very cold weather is killer cold with these anemic OWM inline-4 pumps. Looks like this solves the problem.

Worth noting, they're stock on most Eurovans.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
NZer
Samba Member


Joined: January 17, 2012
Posts: 88
Location: South Western Ohio
NZer is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you had the air handling box out of the dash? I found (and I guess those other that have been in there) a baffle plate that blocks a good portion of the heater core when I replaced the blower. I now have plenty of heat up front. Pitty it takes an eternity for the van to warm up! Before the motor stopped working!
_________________
A sad looking 88 Westfalia, MT 2.1 with 150k on the clock and several issues!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
dkonzy
Samba Member


Joined: October 24, 2012
Posts: 142
Location: Kirkland
dkonzy is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Routing Reply with quote

What is the routing of hoses and does the pump just pump more volume through an existing heat exchanger?

I have a chilly front two seats in my syncro here in Seattle and would love to get some toasty toes....my wife would probably come on more adventures with me that way Smile

Has anyone tried this on a 2.1 with good results?

D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bluefirefly
Samba Member


Joined: March 16, 2011
Posts: 438
Location: Calgary, Ab
bluefirefly is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Routing Reply with quote

dkonzy wrote:
What is the routing of hoses and does the pump just pump more volume through an existing heat exchanger?

I have a chilly front two seats in my syncro here in Seattle and would love to get some toasty toes....my wife would probably come on more adventures with me that way Smile

Has anyone tried this on a 2.1 with good results?

D


I don't remember having that problem with the WBX even with my old front heater core.
The "no heat" problem in front happened only after the conversion.
Are you sure your front heater core is good?
If you don't have cooling problem during summer driving or idling, you might not have air in your system but a bleed of the coolant system is a first, easy and cheap step.
The only difference now with this pump is I got a lot of more heat in front than back but at least even under -20C, I can defrost the windshield!

I am pretty sure other will respond with more help to your problem.
_________________
86 Syncro Tintop G60
work in progress ...as always!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Californio
Samba Member


Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 842

Californio is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I installed one of these last week and lo and behold, the front heat gets COLDER when I turn on the pump motor.

This tells me that I must have installed the hoses backwards so that the pump is fighting the water pump and reducing flow.

I thought I might have reversed the leads to the pump, so changed them, but it still gets cold with the motor on.

So--since there aren't any flow arrows on the motors--which side is the inlet, and which side the outlet?

It looks from the picture at the top of this thread like the end one is "in" and sucks coolant from the heater core, and the side one sends it back to the engine. That's how I have mine, but it doesn't work.

Should I reverse them?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bluefirefly
Samba Member


Joined: March 16, 2011
Posts: 438
Location: Calgary, Ab
bluefirefly is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Californio wrote:
I installed one of these last week and lo and behold, the front heat gets COLDER when I turn on the pump motor.

This tells me that I must have installed the hoses backwards so that the pump is fighting the water pump and reducing flow.

I thought I might have reversed the leads to the pump, so changed them, but it still gets cold with the motor on.

So--since there aren't any flow arrows on the motors--which side is the inlet, and which side the outlet?

It looks from the picture at the top of this thread like the end one is "in" and sucks coolant from the heater core, and the side one sends it back to the engine. That's how I have mine, but it doesn't work.

Should I reverse them?



If you have the Bosch pump, there is an arrow on the pump body (not motor).
Here is a link of what I did, some pictures might help you to figure out the way to plug the pump.

http://famillysyncro.wordpress.com/2012/12/22/additionnal-electric-coolant-pump/

Looking at the third picture, the top hose is the heater core output (the one without the heat control valve), going throu the pump and the lower hose exit from the pump going back to the motor.
Good luck.
_________________
86 Syncro Tintop G60
work in progress ...as always!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Californio
Samba Member


Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 842

Californio is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! This looks like exactly what I did, but I'll recheck.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bluefirefly
Samba Member


Joined: March 16, 2011
Posts: 438
Location: Calgary, Ab
bluefirefly is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Californio wrote:
Thanks! This looks like exactly what I did, but I'll recheck.


Actually, this is exactly the same setup as Jtrashy, I only put the pump another way as I didn't want to splice my existing hoses.
_________________
86 Syncro Tintop G60
work in progress ...as always!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mathieux46
Samba Member


Joined: October 21, 2006
Posts: 168

mathieux46 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I just ordered the same pump on ebay. It's the last time we freeze in the syncro! Last week end we even run out of propane during the return trip from the ski and everybody was frozen like crazy since the propex stopped working. Not nice at all.

Since I have the subaru conversion I have no heat during winter when driving, everything is fine at standstill but the minute I drive, no more heat. I also isolated all pipe under the van, with standard pipe insulation and block of the rad with cloroplast.

I will report results.

Thanks for the idea!

Mat
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Christopher Schimke
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5132
Location: PNW
Christopher Schimke is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Californio wrote:
Thanks! This looks like exactly what I did, but I'll recheck.


One thing to remember is that over the years, people may have changed the routing of the heater hoses and the core and heater control valve really don't care which is in and which is out. They will perform the same either way. It's probably best to trace the heater hoses from the engine to positively identify which hose is actually the feed and which is the return.
_________________
Christopher

*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Christopher Schimke
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5132
Location: PNW
Christopher Schimke is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Routing Reply with quote

dkonzy wrote:
What is the routing of hoses and does the pump just pump more volume through an existing heat exchanger?

I have a chilly front two seats in my syncro here in Seattle and would love to get some toasty toes....my wife would probably come on more adventures with me that way Smile

Has anyone tried this on a 2.1 with good results?

D


Yeah, I've never had a heating issue with any WBX engine. The heating system is usually too much for most conditions. Like was mentioned, I would look at all of the possible culprits first. Check the heater control valve to make sure it is opening all the way, check for pinched hoses, etc. Then try bleeding the system. If those efforts don't yield any results, you may have a plugged heater core. It's not uncommon since the passageways are very small. If the core is partially plugged, a booster pump may help get the flow that you need to maintain good heat, but it would be somewhat of a band aid for the situation.
_________________
Christopher

*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB