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Regarding the "No machining 1800cc"
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uncle_fly
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Regarding the "No machining 1800cc" Reply with quote

Hello again all, i have been doing some reading about power upgrades for my stock 1600 and i stumbled across this article.

http://www.hornbyislandwares.com/acn/1737/1800cc-vw-engine-no-machine-combo/

I'm curious if anyone on here has built one, and if so how do they rate it. I have access to most of the parts needed for this build, at very reasonable prices. I'm hesitant to have machining done, mainly because of price, due to the shops around me charging exorbitant prices upwards of 250 for the case alone. What would be the downfall to building this with 88mm pistons (slip in at the case machine in at the heads) a 74mm crankshaft, Engle 100 or fk-41 cam. Compared to building a 1776 or 1914. Would i be sacrificing power our longevity somewhere? I know there was a discussion a while back regarding this subject but it seemed to skirt around my main questions. I truly would like to know why someone would amend do much and do so much machining to build a 1776 when you could build a 1800 with minimal machining

Thanks in advance
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bugguy1967
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1776s are easier to build. We don't do the machining, the machinist does, and when we get it back it goes together like stock.

Any increase in engine capacity will have noticeable power improvements, whether you bore or stroke. My first performance engine was a 1641 with a 100 cam and Kads. Definitely a bump over the stock 1600 dp. I've built a 1904 with a 110 cam and got to try it out for a day and it was an awesome combo. If I could do it all over, I'd try to find some 5.359 or 5.325 rods to keep the width closer to stock.

Either way, you're going to have to send some stuff out to the machine shop though.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.aircooled.net/1800cc-vw-engine-no-machine-combo/

is the most recent version of the article. The version you posted was an early and incomplete version during our new site development. Aircooled.Net is where you should be reading these.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like to hear more info on this as well.

Are there any peeps that have any "mega" miles on there slip in 88's?

Also, build sheets and HP numbers or any thing of that sort?

Like the idea of an affordable mild-stroker build, stock just is not enough for today's driving if its a daily driver is all in my opinion.... RB
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bugguy1967 wrote:
Either way, you're going to have to send some stuff out to the machine shop though.


Yes!

This is my first engine build so I naively took "no machine" literally, as if I'd just have to buy everything, assemble, and go. Rolling Eyes I was extra naive. At this point, the only thing a machine shop hasn't done for me is a bigger bore and at this rate, I might as well have....it would have added what, $85 to the $$$ I've already spent?

I'm very slowly doing this build and I had to get some work done. I started with a new case that needed some cleaning up. When I got it back from the machine shop, I discovered more that needed to be cleaned up. I got the L3 heads and they needed cleaning up in the combustion chambers. When I got them back from the machine shop, I noticed that half of the holes in between the cooling fins were either closed or only partly opened so now I'm going to open them.

The heads have to be opened to accept the larger top of the P/C's, you'll probably want to full flow the case, and aren't you going to want everything balanced? I'm not sure how you're going to avoid machine work.

Nothing against this build (or ACN who I continue to loyally buy from) but I don't know that it's drastically cheaper than, say, a 1904.

When I was researching this build, it seemed people didn't love the 88mm slip-ins b/c there's an old kind and a new kind. The old kind are like the 87mm slip-ins used in a 1641....they're thin and have a reputation for warping. The new 88mm slip-ins are much thicker and I've read nothing but good things about them. However, some people won't use slip-ins on principle....not to mention that the 1776 combo is tried and true.....people have been running them for decades and probably think that if an 1800 is only + 24cc's that it's just not worth it.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the things to put in your back pocket for rememberance is the 1800 is a stroker engine. The 1776 or 1835 engines are not strokers.

That extra stroke length helps create more torque down in the lower RPM's where your engine, in all reality, lives better than 90 % of the time unless you are racing.

A 1800 built with the same heads, cam, exhaust, carb(s) will produce more torque than a 1835.

So, what does torque REALLY mean?
Torque measures how much work can be done.
Horsepower measures how quickly THAT work can be done.

Torque pushes the heavy bus down the road, turns over the larger 31 10.50 Baja Tires, pulls the steep grade in a higher gear.

Horsepower accelerates quicker.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horsepower= how fast you hit the wall


Torque= how far you move the wall

Heard this some where, its not mine but I like it
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
Horsepower= how fast you hit the wall


Torque= how far you move the wall

Heard this some where, its not mine but I like it


Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear end.

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front end.

All four are stated together in Nascar.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you are going to machine, don't forget you can use the 74 crank with 94mm pistons. It's not about budget, it's about "no machining" the case. If you don't have a good shop local, machining the case costs a fortune in shipping costs, not to mention hassle and time.

If you are going to get it machined, go 92mm Thick Wall or 94mm.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was away for a but there but, I'm no closer to a resolution, i have access to a 74mm crank for fairly cheap and a set of heads machined to 92mm for $80 a piece, and a Engle fk41 cam for dirt cheap, seems as if i could go either route from here fairly easy
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

given this situation and using that crank and heads, I'd get a set of 90.5mm A P&Cs if you want to machine the case, or 88mm slip in thick walls if you don't, and 5.325" H-beams, and build it. Light flywheel too.

uncle_fly wrote:
Was away for a but there but, I'm no closer to a resolution, i have access to a 74mm crank for fairly cheap and a set of heads machined to 92mm for $80 a piece, and a Engle fk41 cam for dirt cheap, seems as if i could go either route from here fairly easy

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If one wanted no machining could they for instance use 85.5 pistons with a 74 or 76mm crankshaft? And an Engle 100, fk41, or scat c-20. If so what push rods would be recommended, and what lifters would coincide properly with that setup. Also what would be the cc then, would it be worth it?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uncle_fly wrote:
If one wanted no machining could they for instance use 85.5 pistons with a 74 or 76mm crankshaft?
Yes. 5.325" rods keeps the engine near stock width, less barrel shims needed.
uncle_fly wrote:
And an Engle 100, fk41, or scat c-20.
Yes.
uncle_fly wrote:
If so what push rods would be recommended, and what lifters would coincide properly with that setup.
You must trial assemble the engine and measure the length pushrods needed. I would use AC.Net Aluminum p-rods. For lifters, in the order of the cams you listed, Engle, Engle, Scat.
uncle_fly wrote:
Also what would be the cc then, would it be worth it?
1699cc and 1745cc. Any good engine build is worth it, quality parts, patience and attention to detail in assembly. It's worth it especially if a stroker crank is involved!
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JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

85.5x74.............1699cc
85.5x76.............1745cc
or
85.5x78.4..........1801cc-----this combo could theoretically drop in with a little clearancing when using 85.5B pistons(vs. stock "A" pistons)

lifters depend on cam-scat uses scat, engle uses engle, cb uses cb, etc.

we can't tell you a pushrod length, that has to be measured-this is all due to the imperfections of aftermarket parts, and the imperfections in the case and heads-as for type(aluminum, cro-mo) aluminum for low revving motors(anything below 4500rpm) anything above is cro-mo or HD aluminum(hard to find/expensive)

any displacement is probably worth it, but that also depends on if you think the work to get there is worth it. I personally like a challenge and so somehow find the most difficult way to do something, enjoy it(sometimes)

1776
pros for building-slaps together like stock, rarely have to change pushrod size, mainly have to check compression ratio, stock like engine width

cons-must find a shop to machine the case

small Strokers(88x74, 85.5x74 etc.)
pros can give a little more power, depending on cam can give 'more' torque down low

cons- must measure rocker geometry, check clearances more(especially rod nuts to case/barrels, spacers-depending on rods-funky engine width
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this topic has had me up at night trying to figure out how to spend my money/time and sorry to all so many questions but, were i to rebuild my 1600 with 85.5 pistons and cylinders use a 69mm counter weighted crankshaft, and a performance cam camshaft would i feel a noticeable difference in torque and power? I'm mainly looking for reliability, but i do want a bit of extra oomph. What cam would everyone recommend for a 1600? Engle 100/110 fk41? What it's a cheater cam? Also considering a set of cip1 1.25 rocker arms any advice is once again appreciated, and why do people speak of lightening the flywheel? What purpose does that serve? I have also heard that the Engle 100 or 110 would be too lumpy a cam with dual kadron 40/44's fact or fiction?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're looking for power, there's no replacement for displacement. I have a client that I built a 1679 with slip in 88s/machine on head side pistons and cylinders in his 70 Ghia. I thought his car made a lot of power with the 1600 single port, but with the 1.7 ltr, it was super fun, torquey for it's size, and cheap! the engine cost him $1100 for the longblock. Here are the specs:

88 AA pistons (proven reliable)
100 cam
stock rebuilt rods
10/10 stock crank 8 doweled
10 lb flywheel
Santana pulley
rebuilt ported stock valved heads
1 3/8 header with quietpack
8.5:1 compression
Weber 36 IDF or Dell 36 DRLA (can't remember)

To answer your questions, you probably will not notice a difference in bottom end power if you change the cam. If you use 1.4 rockers and the appropriate pushrods you will have more bottom end and a higher powerband. For 5000 rpm, you will not need a C/W crank. The counterweights do not make more torque, but they will rob some power due to the extra weight. Lightening the flywheel makes the engine more sensitive to throttle. It revs faster, but also has some downsides. Engle 100s and 110s love dual throat carbs. Whoever told you that has got to do some more reading.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So i bought a seized 1776 longblock today, preliminary examination shows no cracks in the case or heads the main bearing melted due to no oil on the motor, (the external oil filter was loose and drained the motor) i obtained a new stock crankshaft from a buddy, and am gonna do further examination tomorrow, but I'm curious would the Engle 100 be to mild for this motor? Should i use "lube a lobe" lifters or just stock style
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen some bad things out of the lube-a-lob lifters. I think the idea is great, but the metal is of poor quality. I have a set in one of my engines and I am worried about loosing them, (Installed before I saw a set worn).

I recommend running German lifters or Engle lifters.

For cam choice, a w100 is not too mild. I had a 1835 with 40 X 35.5 heads, dual 40 Dellorto carbs and a stock cam that ran fantastic. I would have sworn it had a larger cam until I tore it apart.

Stock cams make a really good stump puller engines that have great throttle response off idle and with opened up heads/carbs to feed it, will run an engine to 4800 to 5000 RPM.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

uncle_fly wrote:
So i bought a seized 1776 longblock today, preliminary examination shows no cracks in the case or heads the main bearing melted due to no oil on the motor, (the external oil filter was loose and drained the motor) i obtained a new stock crankshaft from a buddy, and am gonna do further examination tomorrow, but I'm curious would the Engle 100 be to mild for this motor? Should i use "lube a lobe" lifters or just stock style


I was told that if you're using an Engle cam then you should use Engle lifters. As joescoolcustoms said the w100 isn't too mild. You just want to be sure that if you're using Kadrons that you're not getting too much cam. I'm in the midst of building an 1800 and went with the w110 b/c I'm going to use Dell. 36's. I was told that if I used my Kadrons with that cam that I'd never get a good idle. And it's hard enough sometimes to get a good idle with Kads on a stock cam! If you know, though, that stepping up to bigger carbs is in your near future then you can suffer a bad idle for a while with the Kadrons until you get your new carbs.

After reading around a lot, it seems like cams are another place where bigger isn't always better.....just like you don't want to get carbs that are too big for your application, you don't want to get a cam that's too big.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea for Lube-A-Lobe lifters cam from V8 engines where the cam is above the crankshaft and the lifters get a lot less oiling. On a VW engine they are not needed because the cam and lifters are below the cranshaft and there is plenty of oiling runoff and splash coming from the crankshaft above.
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