Stock aux battery wiring/real time help

[thatvwbusguy]

I understand that now Mark. Todd emailed me at home over the weekend asking about his "Yandina", so I was completely confused about what he was trying to accomplish until today. I would never recommend triggering a Yandina with the stock relay, it is more complicated and will provide less efficient charging than the Yandina alone would.

At this point, there is no confirmation that any of his stock wiring is connected correctly, or that the stock relay is functional.

I could troubleshoot it in 5 minutes if I was there with my multimeter, but lack of data leaves us all guessing what might be wrong at this point.

Finally, in my opinion, unless charging a normal group 41 under the drivers seat as their auxiliary, the Yandina connected per the normal installation instructions will pass more current and will charge faster, without relying on the stock relay or wiring.

Todd has a Subaru conversion and is running one of my hard start relays, so he needs to ground the stock relay locally, which I believe he already has done.

I am going to go stop watching this topic at this point, since it seems that we have too many cooks in the kitchen and we are just going around in circles.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[tschroeder0]

I am at fault for the confusion here guys, sorry imwas trying to get as much info as quickly as i could to,het this fixed, so,i enlisted the help of those that i know have the amswers, but the confusion is all from mynside.

I wired it up tonight correctly and yes i do have the red/blk wire grounded, it looks like everything is working now, im tired and will give it the once over tomorrow and go from there.

The guy adding the bad spice in the kitchen was me, i can do a sterile placement of a central line in a patient who is screaming, but geezeus i get stage fright with elctrical diagnostics.

I appreciate this soo much, you guys are the best.
Todd

Edit: Sorry for the spelling errors

[Destructo]

So this thread has actually really helped me out a lot. I have never had my stock auxillary battery hooked up, but thought I would give it a try to see if it would work.
I have the sneaking suspicion that my stock auxillary battery relay is bad. I have connected the wires per crazyvwvanman's earlier post. Large red wire from starting battery connected to pin #30, large red wire leading to aux battery's positive post connected to pin #87.
I'm measuring 14.3 volts at pin #30, but no voltage is coming out of pin #87 to charge the auxillary battery.
Is there an easy way to test this relay to see if it is truly bad? Or have I done all the testing I need to support my suspicion?
Jay or Mark, you both know your stuff so info from both of you would be greatly appreciated.

Eddie in Phoenix
_________________
1985 Wolfsburg Edition Westfalia Camper Bostig conversion

Dude, where's your van?

[Destructo]

Okay, to add to my post above. So I obviously know that I'm getting power to pin #30, but that power is not transmitting to #87 were it needs to go.
After reviewing how the relay works (so simple) I ask myself, maybe I'm not getting power to pin #86 to close the bridge between #30 and #87.
So my new question is, how much voltage should I read coming from the blue "field" wire? I never thought to check that wire when getting readings.
If the blue wire is not giving power to pin #86, then there is my problem. however, if my blue wire is giving power, then that must mean that the relay is shot and I should try the extra one I have lying around.
Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of this logic (if you want to call it that)

Eddie in Phoenix
_________________
1985 Wolfsburg Edition Westfalia Camper Bostig conversion

Dude, where's your van?

[crazyvwvanman]

It may be an issue with the alternator in your conversion. The VW Bosch alternators can put more power on the blue wire than some others can and I'm not sure about the Ford ones used in Bostig conversions. They used a couple different ones as their conversions evolved so you might want to contact them and see if this is a known issue with any or all of the Ford alternators used. Subaru alternators have this problem and there is a simple way around it that would work for you too if that turns out to be it. The relays require the blue wire to provide amps as well as volts, while making the dash led go on or off is mostly a volt thing.

So ask the guys at Bostig.

In addition to the blue wire voltage on #86 you also need a ground wire on pin #85 and you did not mention that pin yet.

With a ground on pin #85 you can pull the blue wire off #86 and push it aside, then touch a test wire end to either #87 or #30 with the other end touching #86. That should make the relay click on/off as a test.

Mark

[Destructo]

[crazyvwvanman]

I edited above to add this:

With a ground on pin #85 you can pull the blue wire off #86 and push it aside, then touch a test wire end to either #87 or #30 with the other end touching #86. That should make the relay click on/off as a test.

Mark

[thatvwbusguy]

There was definitely an issue with the blue alternator field wire when used with the Bostig kit. Jim was working on a solution for people who wanted to use the relay to charge an auxiliary battery, or to power the fridge in a full Westy on 12V.

I am sure that a simple solution was found, but I don't know exactly what it is. I will email Jim to see if he can give us the scoop.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[thatvwbusguy]

It looks like this issue has already been solved, but it might depend on how old your conversion is. Contact Bostig via phone at 617.272.3800 or submit a support ticket on the website https://bostig.zendesk.com/anonymous_requests/new and they can give you the details.

Also, as Mark noted, be sure to test your relay before looking for other answers. The stock fridge relay in my '85 Westy crapped out a few years ago.

In reality, it is incredibly rare for an electro-mechanical relay to fail fail, but I have seen more of the stock silver relays under the driver's seat go bad than any other type.

If you find that you do need to replace the relay, be sure to use a Dual 87 relay the 30A Bosch 332 019 150 or the 40A Tyco V 23234 C1001 X005 (I like the Tyco better..)
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[WestiVan]

I've got a weekender 85 with stock wiring and battery (yes it's 28 years old) and can take pictures if you like.

[tschroeder0]

ok guys I am resurrecting this at the risk of again, appearing dumb.

I hooked up my aux relay way back when as per the instructions found above and made some notes that I tucked next to the relay under my drivers seat. Yesterday I was making the wiring a little neater and getting things back in order from my rebuild. I put it all back together and all works fine BUT, i realized there is one very strange issue...it the second #87 pin (or what I have found referred to on the web as "red wire #3")

Here is the issue, it is thought that the second wire on the #87 pin goes to the 12v outlet below the passenger seat, in my van and apparently in many other 85 weekenders it doesn't, here is another wire that goes directly from the aux battery to that 12v plug. I am certain that both the wire that comes off the #87 pin (not the one used for charging the aux battery) and the wire that goes to the 12v plug are stock unmolested wires.

yesterday when searching is I found a very interesting Bentley site that discussed this wire and no one including the guy from Bentley could state what this was for..

it makes sense that you would want a direct wire from the aux battery to the 12v plug on the passenger seat because it was used for the ice box...which you would want to have power even with the van off.

so, to sum up- red wire #1 is power from the main battery to pin 30, red wire #2 goes from pin #87 to the aux battery for charging and then there is one more red wire on the second #87 pin....what does it do?

here is part of that discussion from Bentley that I found from 2005, what is described below is what I have in my van.
Thanks !




85WWW
Posts: 5
Registered: 09/21/05
Re: Aux battery wiring on 85 wolfsburg
Posted: Oct 2, 2005 11:51 PM in response to: Art
Reply
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Hi Arthur,
I have taken some photos and will try to post them.The photos show the relay and wires under the driver's seat. I checked all the leads for voltage and continuity and have figured out what several of them are. The ones I can't figure out I put question marks in my first photo.
There is a cooler plug on the passenger seat pedestal. It is connected to the auxiliary battery on the driver's side by a wire with a black and white sheath (labelled BLK/W). In the same conduit is a wire leading from the relay to the main battery under the passenger seat (labelled Red 1).

The red/black and blue wires which activate the relay share their conduit with some other wires I can't identify. There is a red wire (labelled Red 3) which is not a ground and does not appear to carry voltage regardless of whether the engine is cranking, running, or off. It was the fifth wire attached to the relay. There are 2 terminal 87's on the correct factory relay, they are always connected, it was attached to the center one. The conduit with the blue and red/black wires, and red 3, also contains a pair of grey wires running to the large white inline plug and connecting to the pair of brown wires. I have no idea what these are. Dont't confuse the white plug with the yellow plug visible in the third picture, this yellow plug allows the battery to be disconnected from the BLK/WHT cooler plug wire.
I installed the inverter, capacitor and other junk in the third picture, it is all irrelevant to the first two pictures except that the third shows the location of the relay in relation to the conduits, battery, and yellow plug under the driver's seat

P.S. since I took these pictures I disassembled the relay and discovered the switch was fried. The diode was still okay so I connected the red/black wire to terminal 85, and ran a wire from 86 to terminal 85 on a new(diodeless)relay. The relays are numbered the same, basically the old relay serves only to replace the missing diode on the new relay. The rest of the new relay I connected as follows, Blue wire to terminal 86, reds 1 and 2 (the positive posts of both batteries)to terminals 30 and 87. I did not connect the mysterious red 3. The two relays now work perfectly, disconnecting the two batteries when cranking and when the ingnition is off, and connecting them when the engine is running.
I would still really like to know what the red 3 wire is for and the four wires that connect to the white plug.

I am convinced my "red 1" and "BLK/WHT" wires and the yellow plug is the factory setup because another owner of a 1985 wolfburg posted the following on a yahoo group
"Follow the red/white cable from the relay, it should end up in a black sheath then go through the floor panel and over to the primary battery. In my van, there is a black wire that goes in the same sheath with the red/white wire, it ends up at the cigarette lighter on the passenger seat pedestal. The other end of the black wire plugs into a yellow connector with a red wire which in turn, connects to the terminal of the secondary battery."
Only difference is , my wire to the main battery is red, his is red/white

Message was edited by: 85WWW
Message was edited by: 85WWW

[tschroeder0]

here is a labeled picture of what I am seeing :
not my van, but the one from the above internet post. my relay is hooked up the same though, see red wire #3
btw It is very hard to trace because it disappears under the van above the fuel tank as it exits the battery comparment.

[tschroeder0]

bump...

[thatvwbusguy]

I am pretty sure that in stock configuration the 12V socket should only be live when the van is running, much the same as the fridge in the full Westy would be.

The way the stock fridge relay under the driver's seat is hooked up in the full camper (and possibly in the weekender if there was no factory auxiliary battery, or if it was removed) is the reverse of how most relays are typically connected.

Both of the #87 terminals are always connected. This allows the constant 12V+ to come into the relay through one of the #87 terminals and flow out through the other #87 at all times, just as if the relay wasn't there at all.

If you want to control the 12V socket so that it only receives power when the van is running, you would connect the wire that powers the 12V socket to terminal #30. It will then be controlled via the blue wire from the alternator that triggers the relay when the van is started and the alternator is charging.

If you wanted to use the relay to charge a small auxiliary battery that would also power the 12V socket, you could do so by making the following connections:

12V+ constant from starting battery to terminal #30

Charging wire for auxiliary battery to one of the #87 terminals.

Power wire to 12V socket below passenger's seat from the other #87 terminal.

This would separate the batteries when the van is not running, but leave the 12V socket with a constant source of power from the auxiliary battery.

The only way to 100% verify what the wires are going to is to get out the multimeter and start investigating. In the years since your van left the factory all sorts of things could have happened. I mean there is a Subaru engine in the back now for crying out loud
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[crazyvwvanman]

The Wolfsburg Campers with factory aux batteries and DC fridges powered the fridge socket from the aux battery at all times.

The 1986 Vanagon Camper "Wolfsburg Edition" Supplement says on page 9:

"When the engine is not running, the auxiliary battery will power the refrigerator. Consequently, cooling capacity and duration depends on the battery's state of charge. The auxiliary battery will discharge in about 7 1/2 hours."

Mark

[tschroeder0]

Thank you both.
My 12v socket IS hooked up directly to the aux battery and that is the stock wiring, just as it is from who ever posted the picture I used. I have the sam exact setup as the picture.

My real question is what does the second red wire on the 87 pin do? Are you (jay) saying that the one not going to the aux battery already has power at all times?

[crazyvwvanman]

In my opinion the smaller red is not used in Wolfy vans. I think VW installed the same small wiring bundle in all campers for those years and that other red was for the kitchen power feed in models that have kitchens. The blue, red/black, and red all went to the fridge relay in models with 3 way fridges.

So you could find the other end of that smaller red at the dash and use it to feed aux battery power to the dash area. It is possible that it is currently plugged into one of the fuse/relay panel "P" connectors. If so the battery box end of the smaller red wire should already have constant 12 volts from the main battery. Did you measure it?

Mark

[kamzcab86]

The #3-labelled wire is in the same bundle as the blue and red/black wires running to the front of the van. The wiring diagram for "Camper from 1986" shows this bundle, albeit for the "refrigerator 12-volt heater relay", with the red wire going to a P terminal on the back of the relay panel, and connecting to the second 87 relay terminal.

[tschroeder0]

interesting and thank you!

[crazyvwvanman]

I was referring the the VW installed bundle of camper wires running from the dash area to the battery box area. Not the kitchen wiring bundle that was installed by Westfalia in various iterations. These VW installed wires are the blue, red/black, and red all in the same wiring sleeve.

Mark