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xoo00oox
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010
Posts: 2672
Location: East Nassau, NY
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 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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To be honest, I did not hook mine to the heater hose because I thought it would work better that way, I did it because it was easier because the hose diameters were the same size. I was under the impression that it really did not matter too much were the coolant tank when as long as it was tied in somewhere. I have done all my Subaru conversions the same way and never had any overheat issues.
I assumed there was very little coolant actually traveling through the coolant tank hose because of the size of the small hose, it is only about 1/4 inch diameter hole where the small hose hooks to the tank. |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15141
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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1/4" is plenty enough to bleed off any air bubbles,
hooked up tto the heater return hose is how it's OEM on ALL my inline VWs (gas & Diesels) & Audis (I4&I5) as well as the Eurovan 2.5l 5cyl engines.
V6 or flat engines I do not have any experiances with.
this might be a junction of Inline to flat coolant loop comprehension.
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tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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I'm using the metal impeller water pump on the ABA/JH hybrid in my Bay Bus. My coolant tank is teed into the heater return hose just before the water pump, plus a 1/4" "burp" line running to the bottle from the upper radiator hose just past the coolant flange. Heater supply also comes from that flange now that I think about it; the stock heater outlet on the counterflow 8V head interferes with my gas tank...
My radiator lines are a lot shorter and I've got a huge-ish 20"x24" radiator core, but the radiator airflow under the floor is .. sub-optimal.  I'm also only running a single heater core, with long uninsulated lines up to the nose. But it runs steady at 190*F once it's warmed up.
I've got no idea how relevant or helpful any of this might be, but I'm throwing it out there in case something might be useful. You're having to figure out why the stock cooling system is giving you problems, I only had to engineer a cooling system from scratch.  |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
This is a long shot, but was the Audi donor an automatic? If so, any chance that rerouting or deleting hoses/connections to the transmission cooler is causing your issues?
Neil. |
Hey Neil,
Nah, mine was a manual car. Good thought though!
| danfromsyr wrote: |
| 1/4" is plenty enough to bleed off any air bubbles, |
Yes, when bleeding my system, you can clearly see that this hose is purging air into the expansion tank.
| danfromsyr wrote: |
hooked up tto the heater return hose is how it's OEM on ALL my inline VWs (gas & Diesels) & Audis (I4&I5) as well as the Eurovan 2.5l 5cyl engines.
this might be a junction of Inline to flat coolant loop comprehension. |
So this information above really got me to thinking...and doubting myself. So I did a little looking and found something interesting.
I went to WorldPac and started looking up thermostats for various VW/Audi inline engines. Sure enough, almost all of them use a bypass thermostat, but he 1.8T does not. The 1.8T uses a regular (non-bypass) thermostat.
I then started looking at various VW/Audi inline water pump housings. Sure enough, all of the engines that have separate water pump housings (ABA, TDI, etc,.) have three coolant inlet ports, one for the radiator return, one for the heater circuit return and one for the coolant bypass. However, on the AEB, there are only two ports, one for the radiator return and one for the heater circuit return.
Looking at the ABA versus AEB cooling diagrams, it is clear that they are very different in the areas described above.
Does any of this mean anything in relation to the cooling issue that I experienced? I'm not sure, but it really makes me wonder why Audi decided to do things differently for the AEB.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| tristessa wrote: |
I've got no idea how relevant or helpful any of this might be, but I'm throwing it out there in case something might be useful. You're having to figure out why the stock cooling system is giving you problems, I only had to engineer a cooling system from scratch. |
Yep, isn't that the truth!
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15141
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:00 am Post subject: |
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very good homework and interesting in the differences
it must have to do with the head design or effeciencies.
I'll try to take a close look as I have 2 engines in my garage on stands side by side, an 97 ABA and a 99 AEB. and my 1.8l 8v is in the main bay.
it is handy to have multiple reference objects on hand.
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tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: |
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If I'm grokking things correctly from the cooling system diagrams above, the biggest difference is the coolant bypass that the AEB lacks. That hose on ABA-and-earlier engines ensures a steady supply of operating-temperature coolant directly to the water pump, where it either A) mixes with & stabilizes the temperature of coolant coming back to the engine from the heater(s) and radiator (once the thermostat is open) or B) recirculates back through the motor when the t-stat is closed so there's at least *some* flow to prevent hotspots in the head.
I admit I'm not entirely clear on how the bypass & bypass thermostat work. I've got it, I use it, but .. it works so I haven't looked into the operation very far.
If the t-stat on the AEB is closed and there's a heater valve (closed) on the line to the coer, the only coolant movement would be through the factory oil cooler. Do the cars the AEB came from have a valve in the heater hoses, or is it constantly flowing?
Maybe this is all obvious to the rest of y'all, but it's not something I've looked at and thought about before. Plus I'm only halfway into my first cup of coffee. |
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xoo00oox
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010
Posts: 2672
Location: East Nassau, NY
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| Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| tristessa wrote: |
If I'm grokking things correctly from the cooling system diagrams above, the biggest difference is the coolant bypass that the AEB lacks. That hose on ABA-and-earlier engines ensures a steady supply of operating-temperature coolant directly to the water pump, where it either A) mixes with & stabilizes the temperature of coolant coming back to the engine from the heater(s) and radiator (once the thermostat is open) or B) recirculates back through the motor when the t-stat is closed so there's at least *some* flow to prevent hotspots in the head.
I admit I'm not entirely clear on how the bypass & bypass thermostat work. I've got it, I use it, but .. it works so I haven't looked into the operation very far.
If the t-stat on the AEB is closed and there's a heater valve (closed) on the line to the coer, the only coolant movement would be through the factory oil cooler. Do the cars the AEB came from have a valve in the heater hoses, or is it constantly flowing?
Maybe this is all obvious to the rest of y'all, but it's not something I've looked at and thought about before. Plus I'm only halfway into my first cup of coffee. |
Constant flow. |
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furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:25 pm Post subject: Kudos |
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Excellent install and writeup, Chris. I too have been plagued by cooling problems and seemingly illogical behaviour of the cooling system (of first an SVX then a 2.2 suby install) and thought an electric system such as you decided on might be a sweet solution, and from what I can see, 'tis.
I do believe I FINALLY solved my problem by adding barbed nipples and a 1/4"hose connecting the coolant manifold outlet to the water pump (before the t-stat), which I believe replicates what a Suby conversion company in WA and a guy in Canada are both doing using their own designs. I also have a large bypass teed into the heat hoses near the engine. (I removed my rear heater completely for storage) I believe these two items keep exact engine temp coolant constant flowing onto the thermostat regardless of ANYTHING (outside temp, heater use, etc.). I do seem to have an illogical problem with the heater circuit not always heating up that I believe can be solved by using Ys instead of Ts in my heater bypass, but I haven't tried that yet. Like I said all of this is illogical in that the donor cars worked just fine without any extra bypass hose, the vanagon cooled just fine as well just the way it was. I do believe someone hit on the answer though, when they mentioned the vanagon radiator is MUCH larger and dissipates more btus than the suby did, and the the linesets are, obviously much longer so this may be causing the problem. I will say that having watched mechanical thermostats in water, they open and close fairly slowly, also ALL of the heat coming out of the radiator (via air flow) on the donor cars went DIRECTLY onto the motor, which I believe tempered the coolant circuit. Now on an old Cast iron engine this may not have been the case but these motors are all aluminum and I bet they soak up that heat. I know I can cool my 2.2 when it is overheating by simply pouring about a gallon of water on it. Not the case with an old chevy smallblock I can assure you. (I am aware that can cause damage btw). Hope your new system continues to work great. |
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Crankey
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004
Posts: 2656
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| has this ever been an issue with Stephan's conversions ? how are the coolant flow and heater issues dealt with in his kits ? |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| tristessa wrote: |
If I'm grokking things correctly from the cooling system diagrams above, the biggest difference is the coolant bypass that the AEB lacks. That hose on ABA-and-earlier engines ensures a steady supply of operating-temperature coolant directly to the water pump, where it either A) mixes with & stabilizes the temperature of coolant coming back to the engine from the heater(s) and radiator (once the thermostat is open) or B) recirculates back through the motor when the t-stat is closed so there's at least *some* flow to prevent hotspots in the head.
I admit I'm not entirely clear on how the bypass & bypass thermostat work. I've got it, I use it, but .. it works so I haven't looked into the operation very far.
If the t-stat on the AEB is closed and there's a heater valve (closed) on the line to the coer, the only coolant movement would be through the factory oil cooler. Do the cars the AEB came from have a valve in the heater hoses, or is it constantly flowing?
Maybe this is all obvious to the rest of y'all, but it's not something I've looked at and thought about before. Plus I'm only halfway into my first cup of coffee. |
No, non of this was obvious to me until I started looking at the two different systems.
As mentioned by xo, the stock Audi 1.8T heater system has constant flow with no heater control valve to stop the flow of coolant through the heater core. Instead, they use an air control flap (?) to control the amount of heat that you get in the cabin.
In my system, I leave the rear heater valve open all the time so that in itself will allow constant coolant flow through the system like Audi intended.
Concerning the bypass system, while I have not been able to hold a bypass housing in my hand, it is my understanding that the nipple that is closest to the thermostat (the one that the heater return hose and expansion tank is tied to) feeds directly onto the thermostat and has minimal flow while the thermostat is closed.
The second nipple is located beyond the thermostat and is constantly circulating warmed coolant through the that nipple from the engine block (via the coolant line heading to the radiator) with no restriction other than its own orifice size.
As the engine warms up, the coolant from the heater circuit and the expansion tank combine to directly feed the thermostat with warmed coolant. As the thermostat opens, the coolant flowing into the two nipples begins to feed the entire system at varying rates depending on the position of the thermostat.
With the non-bypass 1.8T system, the system is relying solely on the coolant return circuit from the heater core and the coolant return circuit from the oil cooler to feed warm coolant to the thermostat. Other than orifice size, there is no restriction of the coolant flow into the thermostat housing. The coolant is free to flow directly onto the thermostat and through the engine.
My observations show that in my Vanagon with the engine warmed up, the coolant line from the heater core is fairly cool, but the return line from the oil cooler is very hot. All this while the engine temps were very, very hot. This puzzled me because even if the coolant from the heater core return was somewhat cool, the very hot coolant from the oil cooler circuit should have helped balance that out some and the relatively hot coolant should have been feeding the thermostat with hot enough coolant to help make it operate correctly. However, this was not the case in my system. Even after adding a heater circuit booster pump (in hopes that it would feed the thermostat with a good supply of warmed coolant), the system temps still continued to fluctuate radically as the thermostat opened and closed with the influx of very cold coolant from the radiator return hose. It appeared that the influx of warmed coolant from the heater/oil cooler circuit was not enough to stabilize the system.
The relocation of the larger/lower expansion tank hose from the radiator return line to the heater circuit return line may hold the key here, but I'm not sure.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| Crankey wrote: |
| has this ever been an issue with Stephan's conversions ? how are the coolant flow and heater issues dealt with in his kits ? |
I have never heard of anyone else having this issue. Both Stephan and Paul use the AWP 1.8T which has a different water pump and housing situation compared to the AEB. I have heard of a couple of people (here on the Samba) with the AWP conversion having issues with keeping enough heat in the cabin during the colder months. This would indicate insufficient coolant flow through the system. The cure for both of these guys was to add a booster pump to the heater circuit. I may be wrong here, but that seems to indicate that maybe the AWP pump system is just barely marginal in terms of producing enough pressure to push the coolant through the large Vanagon system. I don't know!
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Just a thought .. use a bypass water pump housing & thermostat, and tee a bypass hose into the coolant hose off the head? You'd effectively be replicating the ABA-and-earlier coolant flow at that point, but OTOH it's known to work & cool fine with the Vanagon radiator & heater system.
Or I might be blowing smoke out my butt.  |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| tristessa wrote: |
Just a thought .. use a bypass water pump housing & thermostat, and tee a bypass hose into the coolant hose off the head? You'd effectively be replicating the ABA-and-earlier coolant flow at that point, but OTOH it's known to work & cool fine with the Vanagon radiator & heater system.
Or I might be blowing smoke out my butt. |
Yeah, that would definitely work. And I would think that you could just tee the bypass into the heater hose that comes off of the coolant manifold on the head.
However, I am sticking to my electric water pump...at least for now.
I had to make some refinements to the system in order to get the temps to operate where I wanted them to and for the system to work correctly.
One of the two changes that I made was moving the EWP controller temp sensor from the front, right at the radiator, to the engine compartment a few feet from the engine. The reason that I had to do this is because with mid 30ºF ambient temps, there is a 80ºF to 90ºF difference between the temps exiting the engine and the temps entering the radiator. In other words, due to the relatively cold ambient temps, the coolant traveling from the engine outlet to the radiator inlet is dropping a pretty large amount of heat as it travels through the coolant tubes and hoses.
This temperature difference was messing with the system. With the EWP controller temp sensor up front, the controller was reading coolant temps that were much cooler than what the engine was producing. Under these conditions, the controller tells the EWP that it needs to run in slow pulse mode which causes a lack of coolant flow which results in the engine running too hot. There wasn't enough adjustment in the controller to make up for the discrepancy.
Moving the controller temp sensor closer to the engine allowed it to read more accurate engine temps and gave me more control over the EWP's pumping modes.
The second issue was due to the lack of a thermostat. While the Davies Craig system is designed for use without one, due to the efficiency of both the 1.8T and the Vanagon's large cooling system, without a thermostat, the engine took a long time to warm up. Even when the EWP is pumping at its lowest rate, it still pumps coolant for 10 seconds on and 30 seconds off, regardless of how cold the coolant may be. With the efficiency of the entire system, this was still enough flow to cause the engine to take a really long time to warm up.
On the advice of John at Davies Craig, I reinstalled a thermostat with two 5mm holes drill in the plate to allow for a small amount of coolant to flow at all times. Warm up times were better but with the influx of chilled coolant causing the thermostat to start closing, combined with the pulsing action of the EWP, the 190ºF thermostat would actually cause the engine to overheat slightly when large loads were placed on the engine for short periods of time, like climbing up a short but very steep hill. The thermostat and the EWP controller thermo switch were seemingly at odds with each other. Or rather, they were just out of sync with each other. Warm up times were good and steady state driving temps were good, but the high load situations caused minor overheating.
Again, on the advice of John at DC, I gutted the thermostat and simply installed just the plate to act as a restrictor. This change resulted in reasonable warm up times, but somewhat low average coolant temps. With Ambient temps of 25-30ºF, I was seeing coolant temps of between 145ºF and 160ºF with spikes of 170ºF under heavy load.
While better than overheating, it still wasn't right. So I got to thinking about the thermostat and how it was reacting to the coolant flow controlled by the EWP controller. I reasoned that if I could install a thermostat with a lower opening temperature, that maybe I could find the sweet spot where the thermostat and the EWP controller were in sync with each other.
I know that there are some different temp thermostats available from the various watercooled specialty houses, but I also discovered that the thermostat from a small block Chevy is a perfect fit. The cool thing about this is that unlike the Audi application, there is a very range of different temp thermostats available for the small block Chevy application and they are very cheap. I theorized that this would allow me to fine tune the system to work exactly how I want.
I installed a 180ºF thermostat today with two 5mm holes drill in the plate. The results were about as close to perfect as I could have hoped for. With 41ºF ambient temps, the average coolant temps at cruise are between 188ºF and 195º with a slight drop at idle and slight rise under full load. Warm up times were vastly improved as well. I find it hard to believe that the 190ºF thermostat had such an effect on the cooling system, but the combination of the 180ºF thermostat and the new placement of the EWP thermo switch seems to have brought the system right into the sweet spot.
Obviously I will need to run it for a little while longer to see how things react when the temps drop way back down and obviously when the climb back up near summer, but Overall, I think it will all work out well.
And one last thing that I wanted to make a comment about has to do with the bleeding of the system.
Because the EWP runs independently from the engine, you can jump the pump with full battery power to cause the coolant to circulate throughout the system without the engine running. This allows you to check for leaks (although the system isn't under any serious pressure with the coolant cold) and to actually hear the bubbles purging from the system since the engine isn't running and the pump is very quiet.
Bleeding this type of a system is somewhat different than normal too. I found out pretty quickly that if you try to purge the air out of the radiator with the pump running, all it does is suck in air. After filling the bulk of the system though the expansion tank, you have to fill (top off actually) the radiator through the bleed port with the pump off. Once that is done, I hot wired the pump and let it run for about 5-10 minutes to let the air bleed out of the system via the small hose that enters the top of the expansion tank. It's actually a very simply procedure, but it did cause me a little bit of head scratching to figure it all out.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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mfriquel
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2010
Posts: 22
Location: Lima, Peru
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hello every body I use a davies craig ewp on my westy to help with the overheating going up on steep hills for a prolonge time , I use it as a auxilary water pump and is in line with the coolant pipes, its been working just fine but my mechanical pump just went out so I have to replace it and the mechanic said that It would work better if I move the EWP more towards the front by the radiator and also pushing the coolant towards the radiator not away for the radiator, I have the EWP in the engine compartment, my question is should I leave it as it is or is the mechanic right? can anyone give me any advice?
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| mfriquel wrote: |
| Hello every body I use a davies craig ewp on my westy to help with the overheating going up on steep hills for a prolonge time , I use it as a auxilary water pump and is in line with the coolant pipes, its been working just fine but my mechanical pump just went out so I have to replace it and the mechanic said that It would work better if I move the EWP more towards the front by the radiator and also pushing the coolant towards the radiator not away for the radiator, I have the EWP in the engine compartment, my question is should I leave it as it is or is the mechanic right? can anyone give me any advice? |
I sort of agree with your mechanic.
One reason is because the pump really should be located at the lowest point in the system in order ensure that it always stays primed and is pushing fluid, not air. If all of the fluid is purged from the system, having the pump located where it is probably isnt too much of a problem, but if there is any air in the system, the pump can cavitate.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Any status updates? |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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As they say, no news is good news, right? All is well with the system. I have noticed that even though I moved the EWP coolant temp sensor closer to the engine and I have the controller set to the coolest setting (which isn't necessarily the actual engine coolant temperature due to the somewhat remote location of the EWP sensor compared to the actual engine temp sensor which is right off the head), I am seeing temp spikes of about 215-225ºF with around town temps at about 195ºF and about 205-208ºF while driving 65 mph. Those temps don't bother me in the least since I know the system can handle much more than that, but as it sits, the system is "tapped out" as far as any headroom. I'm hoping that once the ambient temps start warming up, the system will still be able to maintain the current temps. If it doesn't, I will have to look into moving the EWP coolant temp sensor even closer to the engine so that the controller reads the hotter coolant coming out of the engine.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10365
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
I should add that I have not checked coolant temps to the degree you have. (via OBD port).
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for an ABA OBD1 15º
So I finally got my Ross Tech VCDS to work, albeit briefly (another story). I logged temp etc. while driving. Highest temp at ECT sensor in flange at head end: 108º C. 226º F This may relate to MIL coming on while driving. *see below.
Not over the top, but too hot I think. And this is in cooler weather.
Just thought I'd throw that out there. If I get VC-Scope (graph) software working consistently, if it's ok, I'll post what I find here.
Neil.
*I think it relates to the ECT. After driving, engine still on, a code (29-10 IIRC) is shown (not stored) for the ECT: "intermittent short to ground". I had seen this code before but thought it was a wiring issue which it appears NOT to be. And, if I was reading the log correctly, there were up/down spikes in engine temp. I suspect the coolant gets too hot at head at idle (stop light) then when accelerating this overly hot coolant passes by the ECT sensor, it drops resistance to or near zero, which effectively causes a short to ground  This may be due to an overworked pump, and/or hose length etc. Things Chris et al have already commented on.
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kuleinc
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