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alanhall Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2006 Posts: 115 Location: Northern California
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Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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The January '52 issue of "Auto Speed and Sport" magazine tests a 1500 Cabriolet. I suspect this magazine would have been printed in late November or early December of '51, and the test would have occurred around September of '51. There are no photos of the engine but it says it has a 6.5 compression ratio, and 52hp. The 527 motor has a 7.0 compression ratio and 60hp. Perhaps the engine in the Auto Speed and Sport test car was a type 502 motor. But I agree with Joe, I have never seen anything from Porsche acknowledging a type 502 motor.
Alan |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Possibly? this info is correct.
They state 66 off 502 engines were built and then they switched to the 547 with solex 40 BPI carbs and 60 hp
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/porsche-356-history5.htm
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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Mr. Okrasa Original Old Speed
Joined: May 20, 2000 Posts: 726 Location: Eastside, Costa Mesa. So. Califas...Loco's ;-)
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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alanhall wrote: |
The January '52 issue of "Auto Speed and Sport" magazine tests a 1500 Cabriolet. I suspect this magazine would have been printed in late November or early December of '51, and the test would have occurred around September of '51. There are no photos of the engine but it says it has a 6.5 compression ratio, and 52hp. The 527 motor has a 7.0 compression ratio and 60hp. Perhaps the engine in the Auto Speed and Sport test car was a type 502 motor. But I agree with Joe, I have never seen anything from Porsche acknowledging a type 502 motor.
Alan |
Alan/Roy: Here is the car that was tested. I sold this '51 Split Cab. to a gentleman overseas. It had a 527 engine: Roller brng. crank, normal pistons, normal camshaft with normal heads with short aluminum 32mm intake manifolds using adapters to mount Solex 40 PBIC carbs. Click on photo to enlarge:
_________________
See my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/okrasa/
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint
Denzel engine running. See this link: https://youtu.be/DgUlsQDTXTE
VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com |
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alanhall Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2006 Posts: 115 Location: Northern California
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Joe, when you say it had a 527 engine, I assume it was stamped 527 on the case, is that right?
Alan |
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Mr. Okrasa Original Old Speed
Joined: May 20, 2000 Posts: 726 Location: Eastside, Costa Mesa. So. Califas...Loco's ;-)
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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alanhall wrote: |
Joe, when you say it had a 527 engine, I assume it was stamped 527 on the case, is that right?
Alan |
Hi Alan: No. Here is a pic of the engine. Below this photo, is another photo of my other Split Cab. '52 / #10188 with a 527 engine also:
_________________
See my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/okrasa/
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint
Denzel engine running. See this link: https://youtu.be/DgUlsQDTXTE
VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com |
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alanhall Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2006 Posts: 115 Location: Northern California
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Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Hi Joe, Do any of the 527 engines have the type no. stamped on the case boss with the build no. like on later type 546 and 528 engines have? Attached is a sample for a 546 motor.
Alan
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Mr. Okrasa Original Old Speed
Joined: May 20, 2000 Posts: 726 Location: Eastside, Costa Mesa. So. Califas...Loco's ;-)
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Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:19 am Post subject: |
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alanhall wrote: |
Hi Joe, Do any of the 527 engines have the type no. stamped on the case boss with the build no. like on later type 546 and 528 engines have?
Attached is a sample for a 546 motor. Alan
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Hi Alan. The only numbers that are stamped are the build numbers. My understanding from what I have heard/seen is
they were stamped on later engines starting around late '52 when the 527 was discontinued. _________________
See my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/okrasa/
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint
Denzel engine running. See this link: https://youtu.be/DgUlsQDTXTE
VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com |
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James Davies Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2013 Posts: 141 Location: Baltimore, USA
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Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. Okrasa wrote: |
Can anyone show where is the text/info. that is saying that a "502" engine exists and if so, what are its components that make it "different" than a "527" engine? Cheers. |
That's a great question! It seems it had a different cam from what I can gather, and it had Solex 40s, whereas the later 527s had Solex 32s. Both had roller cranks.
I think the documentation is murky, but there seem to be an evolution in the development of the 1500 motor. Specifically there was the early development 502 motor that was used at the Liege-Rome-Liege race and Montlhéry record runs in 1951, then the planned production version of the 502 documented in Dec 1951, and finally the 527, which it seems was fitted to most '52 model year 1500 cars.
The only documentation I have is from Conradt. He reports on Ernst Fuhrmann's notes from the Montlhéry record runs where a Gmund coupe was fitted with a 1500 Type 502. Here's the specs of the 502 motor according to Fuhrmann:
1490cc
Bore 80 mm, stroke 74 mm
Compression ratio 1:7.4
Power output 72 hp @ 5100 rpm
Maximum torque 82 ft-lbs @ 3800 rpm
Chrome-plated light alloy cylinders
Hirth crankshaft, sodium-filled exhaust valves
special camshaft, 2 Solex PBIC 40
auxiliary oil tank, blower ratio 1.8
otherwise stock
As for that "special" camshaft, here are its specs (with the normal VW cam used on the 1100 and 1300 and Type 527 1500 in parenthesis):
inlet open 42.5 (17.17) deg BTDC
inlet close 77.5 (52.17) deg ABDC
exhaust open 77.5 (52.17) deg BBDC
exhaust close 42.5 (17.17) deg ATDC
The other document Conradt uses is from Dec 4, 1951, and it gives some specs for a 1500 Type 502 engine intended for production use in 1952. It has the "special" camshaft. These are the production 502 specs (with production 527 specs in parenthesis):
max power 60 (60) hp @ 4600 (5000) rpm
max torque 10.6 (10.4) mkg @ 2300 (3000) rpm
valve lash, inlet 0.2 (0.1) mm
valve lash, exhaust 0.2 (0.1) mm
valve lift, inlet 9.6 (8.5) mm
valve lift, exhaust 9.1 (8.2) mm
ignition timing 5 (5) deg BTDC
Does this make any sense or clarify anything?
I wonder if the 502 ended up just being a testbed and never making it into a production car? Perhaps Ludvigsen has something to say on this? I don't have his book, so I can't comment. |
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alanhall Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2006 Posts: 115 Location: Northern California
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Gang,
Since this has come up I decided to take a look again at what Ludvigsen says about a type 502 motor in Excellence. He indicates that the type 502 motor was introduced in the fall of 1951 and had roller crank, 7.0 compression ratio and 32pbi carbs with, I gather, 24mm venturies. The engine was rated at 55hp. He says 66 type 502 engines were built, before the type 527 engine was introduced in October 1951, with 40pbic carburetors wit 26mm venturies. The 527 engine was rated at 60hp.
I have some other data, which I believe is from Solex which indicates that after serial number 30251 the type 527 engines were built with 32pbi carburetors with 26mm venturies.
So perhaps engines 30001 through 30066 were type 502 with 32pbi carbs and 24mm venturies, engines 30067 through 30250 were type 527 with 40pbic carbs with 26mm venturies and engines 30251 through 30750 were type 527 with 32pbi carbs with 26mm venturies.
Engine 30751 and up were type 546 with plain bearing cranks and 32pbi carbs with 24mm venturies and 55hp.
This is all supposition and as I said before I don't have anything directly from Porsche addressing the type 502 motor.
So maybe the early engine Joe had was a type 502.
Alan |
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James Davies Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2013 Posts: 141 Location: Baltimore, USA
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Interesting Alan! That makes a lot of sense.
There was an article in the Registry magazine (March/April 2009) by Phil Carney about the early development of these motors as well. Here's a PDF of that.
He states the 60-ish 502 motors as well, probably from Excellence.
The difference between cams and carbs reported by Ludvigsen and Conradt are probably due to Conradt being interested in the 502 race motors. Ludvigsen probably was discussing the production version of the 502? |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:23 am Post subject: |
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I can find a fair bit on google about 502 engines but as mentioned it would seem more than difficult to see anything by the factory.
I have an engine model listing that I remembered from my early days as a member of PCGB. This listing of model types was made I believe with some factory help by some very helpful guys around 43 years ago.
I suddenly thought this will show the 502. Not so. Sure the details of 1951 1500cc engine model is shown but not the 502. It would seem to me if they made 66 off of this type as mentioned in articles the engine numbers as stated on my listing they don't seem to acknowledge them.
Very weird indeed. Maybe the factory noted the numbers internally as modifications but not on the those engines fitted.
You will see the 527 engine runs from 30001 -30750 its termed a competition engine with roller crank and 60hp but with VW crankcases
The later 528, 528/2 as well as the 546 and 546/2 engines running up to the mid 50's are also engine number defined.
The guys who produced this info had contacts during the 60's they must have had a lot of help from them to do this for sure.
Maybe of interest to those as confused as me?
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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James Davies Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2013 Posts: 141 Location: Baltimore, USA
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James Davies Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2013 Posts: 141 Location: Baltimore, USA
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Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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alanhall wrote: |
I have some other data, which I believe is from Solex which indicates that after serial number 30251 the type 527 engines were built with 32pbi carburetors with 26mm venturies.
So perhaps engines 30001 through 30066 were type 502 with 32pbi carbs and 24mm venturies, engines 30067 through 30250 were type 527 with 40pbic carbs with 26mm venturies and engines 30251 through 30750 were type 527 with 32pbi carbs with 26mm venturies.
Engine 30751 and up were type 546 with plain bearing cranks and 32pbi carbs with 24mm venturies and 55hp. |
Everything you say here concerning carbs and venturi sizes on type 527 and type 546 is verified in the late-'54 factory workshop manual. It shows the type 527 having 32 PBI and 40 PBIC carbs, both with 26mm venturies, though you could install 29mm ones for competition use on the 40 PBICs.
So more confirmation, but nothing on type 502. |
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Jon Schmid Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2012 Posts: 2038 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:52 pm Post subject: Porsche 356 vin number charts |
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OK, I'm not getting something regarding the engine number charts. According to what is shown, the 616/2 Super engine series ended in Aug 1959 with 86999. I have 86XXX (original engine) in my 1960 356B (March completion date). Did Porsche stockpile engine cases for 6+ months in advance, or is maybe the list a bit off?
Thanks in advance for any clarification--
Jon |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Jon,
My other reference shows 1960 356B super egines with 616/2 motors running from 85551 - 88320 . Yours fall into this fange perfectly as far as I can see.
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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Jon Schmid Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2012 Posts: 2038 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:31 am Post subject: Porsche 356 vin number charts |
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Thanks, Roy--I figured it was me.
Take care-- |
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James Davies Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2013 Posts: 141 Location: Baltimore, USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:25 am Post subject: |
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One further bit of information about the 502 engine. Conradt reports on Porsche document 356.00.507 from June 20, 1952 where they weighed the new Type 540 America Roadster built by Heuer fitted with the new Type 528 1500 Super. They also weighed installation-ready engines:
1.3 liter (Type 506) 94 kg
1.5 liter (Type 502) 96.5 kg
1.5 liter (Type 528) 104 kg
They didn't weigh the Type 527, but they did weigh the 502. Note the extra weight on the 528 is due to its oil filter (filled with oil) and oil lines. |
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James Davies Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2013 Posts: 141 Location: Baltimore, USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:33 am Post subject: |
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alanhall wrote: |
So perhaps engines 30001 through 30066 were type 502 with 32pbi carbs and 24mm venturies, engines 30067 through 30250 were type 527 with 40pbic carbs with 26mm venturies and engines 30251 through 30750 were type 527 with 32pbi carbs with 26mm venturies. |
Alan, one further bit of info. In Conradt's book, he discusses dealer circular #44/52 from Porsche to its dealers discussing the changes to the '53 model year cars as of October 15, 1952:
"The 1.5 liter engine will in future be delivered as the Type 546, which develops a maximum of 55 hp, but is smoother at lower rpms and provides better acceleration than the previously delivered Type 527. The engine is delivered with a one-piece forged Alfing crankshaft instead of the previous Hirth crankshaft. Instead of the earlier Fuhrman camshaft of our Type 527 engine, a VW camshaft is used."
So it seems the Fuhrman camshaft was being used in the 527 right up until the switch over to the Type 546. |
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Steve Heinrichs Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2012 Posts: 407 Location: Califonia
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Guys,
I see the 30067 number as going in a car on 8 December 1951 and 30064 on 26 November 1951.
At the moment we are two days away from having to get the last book changes in so I am swamped.....later, I'll try to bring up the 539 motor.Yes, 539.
Steve Heinrichs |
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James Davies Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2013 Posts: 141 Location: Baltimore, USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Most of the parts in the '55 spare parts catalog for the new 3-piece motor of late '54 have 539 as their prefix. The Type 546/2 motor used for one year only in '55 model year cars uses many of these parts. I assume this was an experimental first crack at a 3-piece case motor that eventually morphed into the 546/2?
I have a complete 546/2 motor that is unmolested, and it has many of these 539.xx.xxx parts. For instance, the cam on the motor is the 539.05.103, which is the normal VW profile camshaft for the 3-piece case.
Re engine 30064, it would be interesting to note if it was identified as a 502 motor, or if any of its predecessors were. |
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