Help guys, please! Issue with weight and stopping

[smitty24]

Im traveling from Utah back to my home in Oregon, tomorrow. I will be in a lot of snow and bad weather. I have nice snow tires on the bus. Just got the snow tires on today, and loaded up the bus with all my belongings, tools and such. The issue, is that I have so much extra crap in the bus (that I need), the bus won't stop for crap! It also won't move for crap, but the stopping is the bad part. Is it possible to bust my engine trying to over-work it? Is that possible?? I have a '67 with spindles up front and straight axle kit. 1679 with dual Webers. It isnt a bad motor until the bus is full.

My problem is that I am worried about stopping...and busting the engine, pushing it too hard. Is this possible?? Someone talk some sense into me. I have done small moves in buses before but nothing like this, long distance. I have a good 800-1000 lbs. of tools, parts, wheels/tires, fuel, bench seats, etc. weighing the sucker down. Anyone have some insight? as of right now, the bus is freaking dangerous and doesnt move or stop safe at all. how much weight can a bus safely handle?

Thanks guys!

[RPGreg2600]

When you eliminate your RGBs your load carrying ability is hampered. A 67 has 1 ton suspension so the brakes should be able to handle 100lb, I would guess your brakes need some work. Have you adjusted the shoes recently?

[rking6]

Make sure your brakes are in great condition and take it easy ( GO SLOW) you will be OK ,,,take your time, enjoy your adventure,, feel your bus out,,,and drive accordingly... Good Luck !!!! Bob King. 63 ,,EZ Long Beach CA.

[kombisutra]

Not commenting on the malfunction of having taken the "balls" from your bus putting a straight axle kit on it, but will comment on the hauling and stopping capacity. The bus can handle more than twice the weight of what you already have in it, and many of us here have driven distances with that kind of weight, not just me. The breaking issue has me thinking 1) you haven't burned your shoes in yet, 2) you haven't adjusted your shoes to the drums yet, or 3) you have one or more leaky wheel cylinders infecting your shoe/drum friction program.

The help you need is from your jack, your hands, and your tool box. When loaded, use only a floor jack (if you don't have one yet, you will before the end of you trip). Sequentially jack the wheels and make love to the brakes. If you have a leaky wheel cylinder (pr-ejaculation), that will be the real reason you're not stopping. Find and fix the leaky wheel cylinder if it's there. Lastly, adjust your E brake cables to one click.

Use engine braking on all grades and preserve your brakes.

[campingbox]

1-ton is 2000 pounds. A stock '67 braking system is rated at 1-ton.

Have you actually weighed the bus or are you just guessing at the weight?

Be careful, especially in Winter weather.

[smitty24]

Thank you all!

I used to work at a feed warehouse and knew what 50-100 lbs. were pretty well. My estimation is close, but not exact. I have to add, I did not do the spindles or straight axle conversion, they were the PO or PO before that. It is just a 68 box with 4 lug drums and adapters out back. 205/70 snow tires on back. 185/60 up front.

when folks modify or take away from the stock suspension, does it ruin the ability to handle the weight?? I know the bug box and axles are not designed for the stress of a weighted bus. Maybe what I have in there, is too much now?

and I plan to disassemble the rears tomorrow. I have the parts if I need to replace shoes. I already did a full rebuild a month ago. Gear oil probably got on them!

[Clara]

If it has a straight axle in back, it won't have 1 ton rear brakes. What's it got? 67 bug brakes? Those are not rated for a ton.

I have happily driven stock 1 ton buses with a ton of stuff in it, many times and the brakes work fine. Yes they are better when empty, but not that much differnt.
On the other hand, if you carry much more than a ton (meaning the bus+ load weighs more than about 4400lbs) , the brakes are not so good. This is very noticable. It is also dangerous on windy mountain roads, or anywhere emergency stopping is needed.
This bus was over loaded:

It is snowing in W WA right now, and sticking. Do you have good heat and wipers?
I stop at truck scales sometimes and weigh the bus. That is how I know if I am carrying a ton. Pretty much the bus carries ~ a ton with my road trip gear + swap meet gear.

4050 lbs 850 miles back home, no problemo. The 66 Kombi was heavier on the way south.

But, that bus has 1.26 RGBs. 4.37 r/p Lower gearing means it can push the weight. It has 1 ton bus brakes. 1600 sp. 195 75 14 tires
Higher gearing isn't neccessarily the best, because it can feel gutless when carrying stuff or going up hill.
Have you compared the brake shoes side by side between stock 1 ton brakes and what is on the back of your bus?

How arced are you shoes? If your shoes fit perfect to the drums, you have 100% braking. You can tell, because if you back off 1-2 clicks on adjustment there is no drag. If it is dragging 7 clicks out, the shoes are not so arced. You may only be using less than half. Check the shoe adjustment again, esp if the shoes are new.

Do the math with your gearing and tires, and see how it compares.


My barndoor bus has the same size brakes as a 68 bug. Shoe size and width, cylinders. The later split has better brakes.

[quartermilecamel]

im not an expert at beetle brakes later on but 4 lug is definetly beetle I think, lol. There might be 4 lug type 3 but Im thinking there isnt. When people usually convert their bus to straight axle, they use type 3 stuff including the brakes(same or similiar size brakes as a bus). Since I think you have beetle brakes, um well, good luck with that. I dont think the type 3 used 4 lug drums, but could be wrong. If thats the case, yes its doable, but you have to drive it like your hauling china dishes sitting on the table. Dont plan on stopping fast or quick. Plan on people cutting you off, and if they do, be constantly looking for a way out. As far as engine goes, a fully loaded 1600 or 79ish in your case is a struggle with straight axle. I basically did the same thing only I had my bus towing a beetle, and.....the bus was fully loaded inside too. Oh, did I mention I was hauling 20 flywheels in the beetle ? I had to ditch some flywheels at a rest stop in the dumpster, cause I couldnt get up to freeway speed. Only time I almost did a rear ender was when the ex wife shit her brains that day and just had to stop fast infront of me in her own beetle(we were moving to louisania) because she was gonna miss her turn. I shoulda just let her go and not try to keep up because I was heating up the brakes in the stop and go traffic in the dam town we were in trying to keep up. Only thing that saved me was I was standing on the brake pedal with full body weight, the bump/crack in the road was enough to make the tires momentarily leave the pavement and they locked up. Bottom line here is you might have to drive in 3rd if you cant get up to speed. Also, consider the brakes a privelidge, not a right. Let off the gas wayyyyyy before normal.
Forgot to add that my bus has always been regular reduction boxes, but I had the rare mountain big nut gearing. When I moved out of louisiana, I had upgraded the gearing to the stock 1964 1:26 to 1 ratio gearing in the boxes. Not thinking about that, I loaded up the bus to the gills. The gearing change made the difference and did take the "nuts" out of my bus some as I couldnt haul as much. My bus weighed in at 3800ish pounds. The beetle with flywheels I forget the weight but Im sure you could do the math there lol.
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Waiting for santa to drop off funky green. I can wish can't I????

[pondoras box]

As far as being underpowered yes your straight axle conversion is definitely your problem, bigger engine will solve that. But until then drive slower and dont overheat, assuming your engine is in good mechanical order and adjusted properly you should make the trip fine.

Your brakes concern me though. Even though you have weaker type 1 brakes it should not be a huge issue. With 70 to 80% of your effective braking power coming form the front brakes it shouldnt be a white knuckle ride. You have an issue somewhere. When you redid your brakes the last time, if I read right it was just a little while ago, did you seat the pads to the drums properly? You mentioned gear oil contamination, you need to fix that to get the additional 20 to 30% braking from the rears. Gear oil by its very nature has a low coefficient of drag which is the opposite of what you want going on. Then on top of that it will heat up and cause your brake pads to glaze over further reducing the effectiveness of your brakes. If they are wet, find the problem fix it and replace the pads they are toast now. What are the condition of the drums themselves if they are out of round and need turned you will never be able to properly adjust and seat your brake pads.

If you are not in a hurry check all of these items and fix them before getting into a bind out somewhere without any help or facilities to do the work. If you are in a hurry well then you are driving the wrong vehicle.
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Looking for anything from Hal Casey Motors out of Hamburg New York, from license plate surrounds to matchbooks.

1961 23 Window (Bobo)
1965 11 Window (Zelda)
1965 13 Window (Lucas)
1957 Oval ragtop
1988 Cabriolet VR6 conversion
Plus a lot of other rusty junk

[joe56vw]

i doubt having a SAK is the braking problem the late beetle rear brakes are almost as big as rear bus brakes
he still has the 1 ton brakes in the front which does do atleast 80% of the braking
if his having braking issues it has to be something wrong the his brakes more then the beetle rear brakes

on my bus i have a mild 1776 with duel 40 idfs and stock '68 bug tranny
'64-'67 bus brakes on the front and '68 beetle brakes on the rear
and i have loaded it with with swap parts including several trannies and motors all last summer
i never have a braking issue or power issue with all that weight in it
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'60 15 window walkthrough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559931&highlight=

why is there no sarcasism button on here?

[Clara]

[Dire Wolf]

Kombisutra made me spit beer on my laptop screen I am a noob but after 2 weekends learning/fixing brakes, sounds like your shoes might be greasy. Like he said " Make some love to your brakes"

[smitty24]

thanks for all the replies, everyone!

I made it back to Oregon, just perfect. The shoes were completely fine, not oiled at all. I had replaced the shoes with brand new ones and hardware, along with cylinders, hoses, and having the rear brakes turned and cleaned up at the same time.

Turns out, the shoes had not seated right after the first couple adjustments. They felt like they had, but did not. The new tires were also such a difference compared to the old, the toe was off enough to make the bus dart to the right when braking. The weight did not help either. I removed the 4 totes full of parts. 1 whole tote was full of 2x4s, another was full of body chemicals and equipment. After losing the extra totes and a clean up adjustment on the shoes, bus did awesome. Went 70-80mph consistently...when not fighting 35mph headwinds. McKenzie Pass in Sisters Oregon, got pretty hairy...creeped it in 1st and 2nd, made it home without an issue. I had just overlooked the obvious with the brakes. Thanks guys!

[pondoras box]

Great to hear you made it OK. Makes for great memories and stories when you take road trips in a vintage car especially when its VW bus.
_________________
Looking for anything from Hal Casey Motors out of Hamburg New York, from license plate surrounds to matchbooks.

1961 23 Window (Bobo)
1965 11 Window (Zelda)
1965 13 Window (Lucas)
1957 Oval ragtop
1988 Cabriolet VR6 conversion
Plus a lot of other rusty junk

[kombisutra]

Thanks for the report, wish I could have been on your road trip! Keep on wrenching, will be watching your posts!

[DubStyle]

What is the ratio front to back on stopping power? I remember something along the lines of 60% front and 40% rear???
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Anthony

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[Clara]

Well, since there are 4 cylinders in the front, and two in the back, that implies a 2/3 to 1/3 ratio. If the bore of the front is the same as the bore of the back, and the shoes are the same width.

[DubStyle]

So 66.6% to 33.3% Thanks Clara. I knew I heard it before, I just can't recall where I heard it.
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Anthony

SBS #1
SBS #1 on FB

"The original & best lowered Split Bus website/club"