Rear camber on 69 IRS

[vwboat]

Update

Still working on rear neg camber issue. Have found a few things I think are causing some of the problems.

When I droped the springplate off the stop, the preload was not very much. I had less than 12* of angle on the springplate. Also the NEW springplate outer bushing I put in was NOS Bugpack bushing, turns out is is too small for a stock VW springplate retention plate. The id is ok but the od is too small and it doesn't sit correctluy in the plate, it angles it up. The package was marked 1 and seven eights id and sm od. I had purchased this bushing about a year ago and never got arouond to using it. I think that BUGPACK had custom springplate retention plates that used this smaller od bushing.

So I am waiting on a set of new outer springplate bushings.
I also reindex the torsion bar to set the preload I want to raise the BAJA.

I think also that the wear on the bushings and the NEG camber were caused by the very light preload on the torsion as I can find nothing tht apears twisted or bent. Hope this is my problem, we shall see.

Thanks for all the replys and offered help.

John

[biblethumpncop]

Any update John? How are the spindles as well? Time for some bigger tires?
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If you blame others when you fail, give them credit when you succeed!

[vwboat]

Finish up today with rear end. drivers side was not damaed as the passanger side was. If this stupid flu(?) or whatever will give me a break I will also get the front done with the new raised spindles and disc brakes done in the next couple of days, then off to the alighnment shop to see how the rear camber is going to be.

John

[NJ John]

Was the control arm twisted?
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1973 standard, yellow, lowered, 3” narrowed front, 1600 blo-thru turbo w/single dell 15.4@86, so far
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[vwboat]

As far as I can tell the control arm was not bent or twisted, but as of now I really don't know. There is no sign of any damage or twist but I don't know how to really check for sure without a jig of some sort.
Thanks for your reply...
John

[msdellisanti1]

Were you able to fix the issue? I just got a rail and the back tires are in badly. Making a check list from your posts to figure it out. Thanks.

[vwboat]

I think the new bushings and the reindex of the rear torshion bars may have fixed the camber issue. Not real sure yet as car is still down for the front end lifted spindle install but thats another story(EMPI). Still need to get the car to the alinement shop to really see if the camber in the rear is right.

Thanks for your post. VWBOAT(john)

[Multi69s]

MSD, if I was a betting man, but I'm not, I would bet big money that you have bent trailing arms. You can not run 8-12" wide wheels, hit large bumps at speed and expect 40 year old trailing arms to be able to handle it. There is no real camber adjustment for the rear arms, just toe. There is a reason there are kits to strenghthen the stock arms. They bend, you can play chase your tail with bushings and tweaking, but you can not correct for bent arms.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[dirtkeeper]

[grandpanystrom61]

Good day to all, I was on a search about bad camber, and found this post.
I have a VW trike, 74 1600 DP with dual kad's, think it is more than stock.

Any how, been trying to set my rear ride height, but with out neg camber, and I have a lot of it.

I did find a little wear in bearing, bushing's old also, so re placed bushings, seals, and bearings on the IRS system.

Catch, not the 70's hub, looks 67 wide 5 lug bolt pattern, with adapter plates for the wide spoke rims, yes it has 50's on the back.

So just read "how wide tires can over time bend the trailing arm"

I have to say the right side is more negative than the right, but both tires have bad wear on inner treads, left shows worst, but think it was also part by aggressive toe in.

Also found out someone backed into the trike in previous owners garage, was told forks were straightened some, but I wonder about the rear end and what might have happened to it.

So how does one tell if they have stock trailing arms, or aftermarket ?

I just do not know where the rear end came from, what was it used for, or how abused. Just want some level tires.

Oh if the drive shaft is level, should we not have a Zero camber ?

If you have worn tires, wide ones with inner wear, would this throw off trying to set camber to be correct ? I mean is the previous wear going to still create some negative camber ?

Read a few things, will check on mine to see how they compare, maybe I can figure out if these trailing arms are bent from time of abuse.

I know wide tires cause issues, but they look so "old school"

I see now they have new 5 lug hub's, no adapter plate needed, maybe I just need to rebuild it all.

Oh they used the long splined stub axle, spacers too, so all went together, possibly this entire set up is problem matic and the arms are not bent.

Wow where does one start ? What does one do ? any tips or tricks to figure out what is bad, bent, dump, and just needs to be re done correctly ????

[dirtkeeper]

You very well may have something bent. Post a pic . You can adjust the torsion bars and might solve everything. The spring plate bootom should be within a 1/2” or so off the bottom stop under normal driving. If it’s an inch away you definitely can adjust the spring plates for improvement.

There is a bit of adjustment at the hub at the spring plate hub bolts.

[cbeck]

Could just be trailing arm bushings. X2 on pics.
_________________
My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779

[Multi69s]

[grandpanystrom61]

Not lost, was playing again, and thank you for so much input.

I did replace the bushings on the trailing arms and spring/torsion area, and just to be safe, I also did the bearings and seals on stub axles.

All went back together fine, and is tighter than what it was, but still I have this aggressive negative camber.

I will get pics taken and up today, I really do not know what I have, other than a IRS rear end early 70's from what I have been told.

Thank you all for the input, hope all have a great week.

[Vanapplebomb]

If that didn’t solve it, the arms are definitely bent. Easy to do with fat tires. That puts a lot of torque on the arms (and load on the inner ball bearing), so it is easy to overload the arms. They are just stamped steel. I found one of my arms was bent ~4deg, cut the bearing housing out, and welded it back in to compensate. You may have to do that, or get new trailing arms.

You could also use some class 12.9 M10 thru bolts from the springplate to trailing arms so it gives you some slip so you can adjust the camber a couple degrees. Rotating the trailing arm up and down changes camber. The arms on 924/944 Porsche’s used this to their advantage and added an exentric bolt that would rotate the arm up or down by turning the eccentric. Maybe try using some M10 class 12.9 volts first, and see if it’s enough to straighten things out. If not, new arms are in order.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021

[cbeck]

May not help you, but maybe somebody else. New 3x3 arms, new spring plates. New arms had 2 bolt holes, so I used em. 2 is not enough. Support vehicle by spring plates so it is close to ride height and loosen the 2 bolts at spring plate/trailing arm. Had camber like a lifted swing axle. 2 straps, top of tires 2 frame to pull top in. 2 more straps pulling bottom of tire out. 2 more pulling arms to the rear to get toe. Tighten bolts. Added/drilled 2 more bolts per side. Never measured how much camber was pulled out, but I would guess over 5*. Hoping it stays that way, got about 10 miles on it so far.
_________________
My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779

[grandpanystrom61]

the charts of torsion adjustment help me understand, but not much guide to the trike considering the take into account the weight of the bug.

I go the right side set with +10 on the inner spline and -10 on the spring plate. Have photos, but do wonder about how the hub flange mates up with the spring plate on the right side.

loose for adjustment.

now torqued to spec's, look at the end of the hub flange to spring plate gap

Now with it jacked enough so the wheel is off the floor, and tire on and all tightened up the right side spring plate hangs like this.

and after lowering back onto the floor, bounced on it a few time to settle, the right side spring plate rest like this, 5/8 to 1/2 inch off lower stop depending on how/where you set the ruler.

a look from the rear at the right side.

tried to get both, but photo size limit did not help me.

now I put a square up against the outer edge of the right tire, floor is pretty level here.

and when I tried to do the same on the left side I did not have the room, so I put the square up against the inside edge of the drum.

and a look from the front side of the left tire.

here is four pic's of the right hup area and fender flange.

and so one gets the idea of what some one else did so they could have the wide spoke rims on the trike way back when.

old wide 5 lug VW drum with adapter plate that sticks out almost 1 inch.
A long stub axle was used along with extra shims and spacer.

and not all this was correct at first. I had to replace slave cylinders, new fitting brake pads, get that outer spacer turned down some so all could be torqued up correctly and fit against each other, spacers and bearings so all is tight and right.

Now the other day I took this pic, so looking at it I had to ask some one who knew previous owners. Guess what, front forks had gotten bent when someone backed into the garage on the trike. Guess he tried to straighten them, but look it is wacked, guess I have more important work ahead of me.

I know that the drive line is just a degree or so above level, tranny CV being higher than the outer CV joint at the wheel, but this is were the air shocks work as I can set them to handle the load of passenger and rider, or rider and gear, so that the drive axle is level. Yes I do understand it will be going up and down some as the road surface changes, but if tension of the torsion bar is set right this movement should be felt and controlled by the air shock mostly, but the torsion tension needs to be strong enough so that bouncing up and down does not abuse the air shock. Gabriel's that I have independent so I can keep each adjusted individually if I need different pressure in them. 25psi min required with 200psi is max. I think I found their setting for me.

Please inform me, educate me, hope I provided enough info and pics so that someone with more knowledge and experience than me can help me.

No I have not used a digital angle finder, rather the plastic square with radius dial and air bubble. Figured it should work simple adjustment, wow that was months ago.

[Multi69s]

I hate to tell you this, but the arms are bent. It looks like at one point they were used in an off road car. Why I say this, is that there appears to be extra shock mounts welded to the top of the arms. However, the arms were not reinforced, so if they were used off road, they can and will bend very easily. Typically what cause a trailing arm to bend is when the suspension is bottomed out. The wheel is moving upwards, the suspension hits the stops, but the wheel wants to keep going, so the arm bends at the bearing area.

A "good" frame shop may be able to straighten them, but the best avenue is to find a VW at a wrecking yard that is sitting on the ground. Then you can sight it from the back and see if its arms are straight. Also, you can use bug, or Type 3 (Squareback / Fastback) arms. They are interchangeable, in fact I am using bug arms on my Squareback.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[grandpanystrom61]

If they were straightened, than you would want to reinforce them so it would keep, correct.

This would all be at a cost, so I will have to find out what cost me more, new trailing arms, or U Pull it arms, or these being straightened.

I am in favor of new trailing arms, but the fender flange will have to be remade and welded, or transferred to the new arms, and than the question is do I get the new drums with the 5 bolt lug pattern of these rims, or do I look at running a narrower style tire and get new rims, say 70 series, I see how this all blossoms into more than I expected....... and I still have to get to the front end...... well rear end may not be right, but close to what I want ride height and tension, if camber would keep I might go a little lower.

I just found that the lower the rear is the more the front stays down, but this also plays with the rack and trail of the front end, which is to bent to worry about, as I will just lift the body off, rear is set, than set the front end to matching height, do the measurements and drawings, maybe a mock up front end, but looks like I will have to get a custom set made if I want the trike to ride correctly and go down the freeway.

[Q-Dog]

Many years ago A local alignment shop straightened a bent arm for me. He couldn't adjust the camber out so he chained the car down to the alignment rack and jacked under the arm until it looked straight. Didn't need to disassemble anything and then finished the alignment.

You have nothing to lose by trying to straighten your existing arms. And since this is a light trike (and not going offroad), you should not need to reinforce the arms if you do manage to get them straight.

Also, I run Chevy drilled drums on the rear of my buggy so no adapters are needed and I get the tires a little more under the fenders.
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Brian

'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle