Syncro - to lift or not to lift, that is the question.

[MKIII and Sons]

insert monkey wrench

http://www.gmb-mount.de/shop.htm?http://translate....Gmg~inhalt
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broke.status

[mathieux46]

Aistair,

I'm very interested by the 2wd spring in the front of a syncro as a lift option.

Please report about the ride. I did some search on europeen forum and it seems the ride was pretty bouncy up to a point people removed them afterward. The spring rate being as the syncro spring the same I can't see why.

Maybe Moog 5660 springs, I have a set maybe the stiffer spring would be better suited in the syncro but could be too stiff.

I wish replacing front spring wasn't such a PITA jog, It would be easier to do tests.

Alos wondering about spring front shims. According to syncro.org a 3/8 in shims would result in 1.6 in lift due to geamoetry of the front syncro suspension.

I need more ground clearance, especially in the rear !

Thanks

Mat

[ragnarhairybreeks]

Mat,

I got the other side done on New Year's day. With both springs installed I now have a 19.125" measurement. I have only driven the van on paved roads so I can't give you any logging road results but I will say that the van is not bouncy at all, feels the same as before, with two exceptions.

They are:

- I noticed right away when I got in the driver's seat that the van sat a little differently.

- I replaced the radius arm bushings on both sides at the same time I did the springs. The old ones were an embarrassment and new ones do change the driving feel.

The reason I did this spring swap are that I had a set of springs to play with and I thought it was worth a try. My long term plans are to install some shocks with adjustable spring perches and also see just how the aftermarket spring situation shakes out. I am not interested in a heavy duty off road spring and shock set up. I plan on keeping my van as un-burdened as I am able.

It is curious how there seems to be only one type of spring installed in NA syncros; tintop or westy. But there were a few different 2wd springs installed in various models. The IG16 wiki entry on springs is a great source of info.

BTW, I understand that the multiplier to calculate ride height change (front) from spring height change to be 1.66. So the 3/8" shims you mention should result in a 0.623" ride height increase.

I'll report any issues I have with my spring swap after I hit the logging roads. I hope to get some time to do that soon.

cheers

alistair

edit: I looked up the info on the Moog 5660 springs you mentioned, and it looks like they have a spring rate of 598 lbs/in. If I've done the calculation correctly(multiply lbs/in by 0.175133), this works out to be about 105 N/mm. That's about 25% stiffer than the stock 80 N/mm spring.
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'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com

[Jon_slider]

> That's about 25% stiffer than the stock 80 N/mm spring

great details being shared thanks for all the info on rates

the IG16 wiki entry also lists several springs with higher than 80N/mm, some 100, 110, and even a Seikel 130

seems the heavier springs are for heavier vans

and what is bouncy to a 5000 lb Van, may be just right for a 4000 lb Van
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My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco

[syncrodoka]

[DeadSetMonkey]

So.
A couple things to throw out there for comment..

1st - As I pull the suspenison bits off, I am thinking there might be some that make sense to upgrade or simply replace? By the time I clean up and repaint (or pay to powdercoat), maybe best just to start fresh? I see lots of SwayBar "upgrades" for instance.

2nd - decide to do the brakes as part of this job, given all the overlapping labor. anyone know a source of high temp decals? I am thinking I'll paint the brake calipers, and add some bling with a decal?
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'90 Syncro Westy 2.5Subi Turbo, BFGs 215/75/15 Rheins

[mathieux46]

Alistair,

Big thanks for sharing your positive results with the 2wd front spring. Now I'm wondering what is the spring rate of GW or syncro.org lift spring? Maybe it's a secret they need to keep?

So now I can get to 19.5 in front with 2wd spring and shim my rear syncro spring with cutting board spacer to also reach 19.5 in the rear.

This is a good solution without doing much re-engineering!

Thanks

Mat

[ragnarhairybreeks]

Mat,

yes, it seems to have worked out ok. I do have to add that there are a few different versions of springs on the front of 2wd vanagons.

I really liked the look of the van at 19.5", was a little sad it settled in at 19 1/8". I might make a thin (3/16"?) shim to bring it back up to 19 1/2".

It is a pity that spring data is not published by Go Westy or Syncro.org. Maybe they are published but I haven't found them. These data would be useful in making decisions.

And again I have emphasize that what I did was done because I could do it. I did not want to increase spring rate much or else I would have to buy new shocks, I don't want to do that right now.

good luck with your experiments, it is not a hard or time consuming job especially if you already in there replacing bushings.

Alistair
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'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com

[Jon_slider]

> it seems to have worked out ok

glad its working out well, thanks for sharing the data

it appears you like the 80N/mm with a light tiptop Van..

based on curb weight from here http://www.roadhaus.com/tires/load.html of
3703 lbs for a tiptop syncro, and
4100 lbs for a westy syncro, it appears the westy is about 400 lbs or 11% heavier

here is another spring, for very heavy vans, it appears to be about a 98N/mm, or 22% heavier than 80N/mm stock springs)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1242645
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My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco

[ragnarhairybreeks]

Jon,

I have to emphasize a few points:

1- I have not tried the springs off road or on rough roads, with fully loaded van

2 - I try and keep the van weight as low as I can, but still it is a heavy vehicle

3 - If I am correct and the spring rates of the 2wd springs I installed are the same, or at least very close, to the stock syncro spring then the stock shock dampening characteristics will still suffice

4 - with points 2 & 3 combined, then I can expect a little better ground clearance due to the added length of the 2wd springs. I do not expect the front end to be stiffer.

5 - if I had to go buy the 2wd springs I would probably not do it. I'd be more inclined to try out the stiffer Moog springs (5660) and see if the stock shocks would still handle them.

I'm not saying that I know better than others, I'm just doing what I can do and finding out how it works for me. You, and others, have pointed out how suspension mods can be a very individual thing. Each of us have differing expectations and desires for how we are going to use our vans. What works for one may not work for another. I can appreciate the work that goes into making a spring/shock combo, and I am not in any way dismissing what GW or syncro.org have done in making springs/shock combos available to us. But I do wish they would provide some spring data to at least give us a bit of an idea just how different they are than stock springs.

Oh, one more thing. Mucking around with the van's mechanicals is for me a hobby. I can afford to make mistakes or do things that others would describe as a waste of time, because I actually enjoy doing it. I do understand that other owners don't want to fool around like I do, and would like a package that can be installed with no worry.

cheers

alistair

PS the rear springs you linked to are pretty interesting. Back to the fronts I've seen spring rate values of stock 80 N/mm, seikel 130 N/mm, Trailmaster progressives at 75-105 N/mm, and Andreas progressives with rate of 100-140 N/mm.
_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com

[syncro.org]

Interesting discussion.

Just want to add that after over a year, we finally have the production syncro westy springs done and ready to ship. They came in over the holidays.

These springs are unique - in feel and purpose. The goal in designing them was to provide a dual-purpose spring for the syncro westy that will deliver good performance both on the pavement and off-road. The Syncro Westy was designed to be a dual-purpose machine with real off-road capabilities- and these springs are designed to remain true to that purpose and functionality.

They should perform better on dirt roads and off-road than any other stock configuration spring available for the westy. They are designed to provide a ride height that allows for maximum up-and-down travel per the stock suspension design. They are also specifically designed to work within the damping limits of the off-the-shelf Old Man Emus shocks and struts - so a 'matched set' of shocks and springs becomes an economical option.

The rate is very nice and feels like it came from the factory for the syncro westy. Supple - it moves with the terrain - but with enough firmness that it does not wallow and kneel, etc. on paved roads. It has a progressive feel as the suspension compresses through the range of travel, with better overall performance throughout the range of travel than the dual-stage 'progressive' springs.

There is also a gain in ride height over stock springs. They will give about 19" as a base height on the average empty syncro westy. Shims can easily take that to 19.25" or 19.5" - We had to start with the lowest desired height to allow the most possible configurations since ride height cannot be adjusted downward, it can only be increased through use of shims.

As for the discussion on height, a sizable number of syncronauts do not really "need" more than about 19" in ride height. (Many syncro westies with stock springs are at or below 18" on the left-front spring.) A height of about 19" gives more than adequate ground clearance for many, possibly most, users, especially with slightly bigger than stock tires. That height also looks right - and stock - on a westy, too - 19.5" and it begins to look 'lifted.' The van will also handle better at 19" on the pavement, will lean a little less, and will have a slightly lower risk of roll-over than with a ride height of 19.5."

While roughly 19" is a good base height for a dual-purpose syncro, 19.25 and 19.5" are easily attainable with this design through fine-tuning with shims. The top priority for these springs was suspension performance in a dual-purpose configuration that matches the actual use of most syncronauts, with homage definitely paid to the legendary off-road capabilities of the syncro. Height is part of that, but maximizing height at the cost of performance is not. If you are looking for height as top priority and need to go much above 19.5," these springs are probably not for you.

The tin-top project springs are on hold until i get my spring engineer back. But we have gone through a prototype round - Dre Lengyel has the result on his van - and they just need some fine tuning. Hopefully the engineer will be able to help again soon.

I will try to be at bURNING vAN - if i'm not out of town. I have a set of the production springs on my syncro if anyone wants to try them.

[syncro.org]

P.S. Alistair, I am willing to send you a set to test for free. You can use them for a few weeks, If you end up wanting to keep them, we can work out a fair price. P-mail me. [email protected]

[insyncro]

[ragnarhairybreeks]

[DeadSetMonkey]

Broad, and dumb?, question.

Who needs the 930 axle/CV upgrades?

True off roaders only?
Are these the "last CV and axle" a guy ever buys?
Overkill for the average Joe.

D
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'90 Syncro Westy 2.5Subi Turbo, BFGs 215/75/15 Rheins

[syncrodoka]

Depends on lift, useage and motor. Average joe need not apply.

[DeadSetMonkey]

[syncro.org]

[j_dirge]

[syncro.org]