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Syncro - to lift or not to lift, that is the question.
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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. lifting a van
NO
2. replacing the bushings
Get an alignment and find out if anything is in need of replacing.
3. replacing the shocks
YES!
4. replacing the springs.
NO, spring replacement is for lifting the van, same as #1
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DeadSetMonkey
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love all the helpful advice.
Keep it flowing.
Once the thread peters out, I'll make a new "recipe" for my suspension and see where that goes.
I'm already getting a good feel that maybe i need to reconsider some of the current recipe.
D
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WestyBob
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I can throw into the mix to try and (maybe) help the OP ....

Two syncros have the stock suspension and wheels for now ... both trucks. Ride is comfortable and never felt the need to lift beyond throwing on some larger wheels/tires on occasion for a little lift when backroading.

The westy syncro long ago got the OME shocks and syncro.org/smallcar stronger spring treatment plus 15" wheels and nokian tires the profile of which keeps the combo diameter close to stock. Overall lift about 1-1.5" above stock. For the weight of the rig when loaded this has been very ideal ... good comfort and handling in crosswinds, excellent for the occasional light off-road.

The tin-top sunroof syncro also long ago got the OME/stronger spring treatment. Overall lift about 1.5-2" above stock with 16" wheels and lower profile nokians to give an approx. overall diameter to stock. Unladen a little bouncy due to lighter weight but not insufferable. Very nice ladened. Great experience both on-road and off-road ... and it's my primary off-roader. Sometimes I'll throw on some 15" wheels with higher profile BFG's for slightly higher clearance.

Note --- in the realm of off-roading the syncros are not particularly stabile laterally so I do recommend keeping at or below 2" lift ***for your stated needs***. Only avid and highly skilled syncro off-roaders testing and trying to do more gnarly things should go higher.

Also ... I have no personal experience with GW progressive springs. The only thing I've heard is the weight of a loaded westy syncro can minimize or neutralize the 'progressive' part of the spring function via static compression. But take that as hearsay only from some syncro gurus I know.
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DeadSetMonkey
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

more more more..

i think i am at least coming to the ide that i do not need (or want?) 2in of lift.
i should stick slocer to OEM height...

Seems like OME srpings, Schwenk, and GW 0in lift springs might be better suited to my needs?
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WestyBob
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeadSetMonkey wrote:
i think i am at least coming to the ide that i do not need (or want?) 2in of lift. i should stick slocer to OEM height... Seems like OME srpings, Schwenk, and GW 0in lift springs might be better suited to my needs?


IMHO none of us can tell you what you want or need nor should we. We can all give perspectives and advice for you to store in your knowledge files for consideration. If you are very sensitive about getting it all right the first time then I'd say you really need to drive some other syncros with various set-ups first.

You could try contacting Rocky Mtn West for more advice and possible test drives. There's also a guy named Richard Jones in Boulder who has a westy syncro with lots of personal experience ... I think he posts a lot over on gerryvanagon.com so you could pmail him from there. And I thought there was a syncro club in the Denver area but not sure ... try looking them up.

Happy hunting ....
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kirsplat
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 2c.
I'm running stock springs with extra shims, OME shocks, stock rubber bushings and 215/75/15 BFG's and I really like the suspension response and overall feel at the wheel.
While I've only done some moderate offroading and don't feel the need to change anything except the wheel/tire combo at this point.
New 215/70/16 BFG's on CLK's will be mounted soon for a decrease of wheel weight.
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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

> Overall lift about 1.5-2" above stock

what do you consider the "stock" ride height of a syncro?

what is your current "raised" ride height?

ride height is wheel center to fender lip

talk to me about actual ride height please, both the OP and WestyBob

Do like John Wessels, name a number, he said 19.5" ride height is safe, I agree
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silversyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too went down this road many, many years ago and now have put about 150,000 miles on my lifted syncro westy.....I would NOT do it again. Granted, the products available now are indeed better than when I got started, but in my opinion it was not worth the HUGE investment or the huge headaches.

If I were to do it again, I would spend the money on bodywork. By that, I mean I would enlarge the wheel wells as much as possible to accommodate larger wheels and tires, which gives you all the chick magnetism and lift you'll ever need without subjecting you to the endless money pit of aftermarket suspension parts and the vendors that sell them....I've got Burley parts I'd be HAPPY to GIVE you if you want em - Rolling Eyes

Being in Colorado however, I can also confirm that with your stock engine and transmission, you will not be happy with any rim/tire combo that is larger than stock. The altitudes and the long uphill pulls not to mention the wind will just piss you off. You'll immediately be looking at a tranny rebuild with lower R & P sets, or an engine transplant...or better yet (as in my case) both. And I'm not talking about one of the "affordable" engine options either...anything less than a 200hp conversion will just be a waste of money, trust me I've gone down that road too.

Any type of lift that puts the van higher in the air just exacerbates all the negative issues.

In the end, to get it right, my suspension lift cost me 3 tranny re-builds, 3 full suspension sets, two engine conversions, multiple drive shafts, hours upon hours of dicking with CV joints...the list goes on and on.

Good luck with all of it. Shocked
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silversyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

double post - sorry (thanks Jon!)

Last edited by silversyncro on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Vango Conversions
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you should be able to fit those tires with your stock suspension. Clearance isn't really an issue on a syncro westy with larger tires unless you're going real hardcore.

I say don't lift it unless you really like the look and don't mind the lower mpg, and more maintenance.
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Brianfromutah
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am glad i found this thread! I just bought a set of 2" GW springs with the thought of just throwing them in and going on my merry way. I guess there is a lot more to it.

Quote:
The westy syncro long ago got the OME shocks and syncro.org/smallcar stronger spring treatment plus 15" wheels and nokian tires the profile of which keeps the combo diameter close to stock. Overall lift about 1-1.5" above stock. For the weight of the rig when loaded this has been very ideal ... good comfort and handling in crosswinds, excellent for the occasional light off-road.


This may be the route i want to take. Are the syncro.org and Smallcar springs the same?

Smallcar claims to have stronger rear springs to aid with heavier rear loads and subaru conversions. Syncro.org doesn't have that claim, but they say to just use leveling shims. Is there a problem with using shims?
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Brianfromutah
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there seems to be some good info here:
http://syncro.org/?page_id=156
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WestyBob
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brianfromutah wrote:
This may be the route i want to take. Are the syncro.org and Smallcar springs the same?


I no longer remember which of the two rigs has the smallcar and syncro.org springs but they feel the same to me.

Those syncro folks that are more tuned in to something like this due to serious off-roading may detect a difference.

Both spring sets have held up well but keep in mind I got mine a while ago and I haven't revisited syncro.org & smallcar to see what they have now.

No shims on the westy syncro. The tin-top syncro sagged a little in back ... I cut out some rounds from a plastic kitchen cutting board for shims and it's been fine ever since. Smile
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jsmitch11
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

silversyncro wrote:


Being in Colorado however, I can also confirm that with your stock engine and transmission, you will not be happy with any rim/tire combo that is larger than stock. The altitudes and the long uphill pulls not to mention the wind will just piss you off. You'll immediately be looking at a tranny rebuild with lower R & P sets, or an engine transplant...or better yet (as in my case) both. And I'm not talking about one of the "affordable" engine options either...anything less than a 200hp conversion will just be a waste of money, trust me I've gone down that road too.

Any type of lift that puts the van higher in the air just exacerbates all the negative issues.

In the end, to get it right, my suspension lift cost me 3 tranny re-builds, 3 full suspension sets, two engine conversions, multiple drive shafts, hours upon hours of dicking with CV joints...the list goes on and on.

Good luck with all of it. Shocked


I just read your post and am confused by it. You say any conversion less then 200hp is a waste yet that is outside the range the the syncro tranny can handle(I have been told that the vw engineers designed it to handle less then 170hp!). Then you say that your suspension caused you three transmissions. I looked through some of your other posts and noticed a 1.8t installed in your van. What makes you certain that it was the suspension that caused your three tranny failures and not the engine??
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whynotvw
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just lifted my syncro westy with ome shocks with gowesty 2" lift springs. My og boge shocks were completely blown so I'm very happy I have new Ome shocks. As far as the lift, I really like the how it rides and especially the look.
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Brianfromutah
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Posted: Today 6:52 pm Post subject:
I just lifted my syncro westy with ome shocks with gowesty 2" lift springs. My og boge shocks were completely blown so I'm very happy I have new Ome shocks. As far as the lift, I really like the how it rides and especially the look.


do you mind posting your ride height? Did you have to change/add anything else (control arms, brake lines, spacers, ect...) Did the shop have any issue aligning it?
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silversyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jsmitch11 wrote:
silversyncro wrote:


Being in Colorado however, I can also confirm that with your stock engine and transmission, you will not be happy with any rim/tire combo that is larger than stock. The altitudes and the long uphill pulls not to mention the wind will just piss you off. You'll immediately be looking at a tranny rebuild with lower R & P sets, or an engine transplant...or better yet (as in my case) both. And I'm not talking about one of the "affordable" engine options either...anything less than a 200hp conversion will just be a waste of money, trust me I've gone down that road too.

Any type of lift that puts the van higher in the air just exacerbates all the negative issues.

In the end, to get it right, my suspension lift cost me 3 tranny re-builds, 3 full suspension sets, two engine conversions, multiple drive shafts, hours upon hours of dicking with CV joints...the list goes on and on.

Good luck with all of it. Shocked


I just read your post and am confused by it. You say any conversion less then 200hp is a waste yet that is outside the range the the syncro tranny can handle(I have been told that the vw engineers designed it to handle less then 170hp!). Then you say that your suspension caused you three transmissions. I looked through some of your other posts and noticed a 1.8t installed in your van. What makes you certain that it was the suspension that caused your three tranny failures and not the engine??



I think you're misunderstanding the point that I'm trying to make.

I'm all about ANY engine conversion that is a clean, quality,modern, efficient transplant, regardless of it's output. If you want to run big tires and tall suspension though, you need power-or gears- to push it, especially out here in the high Rockies.

I never said anything about tranny failure, although I've had some of those too Laughing . The rebuilds I was referring to to were gearing related - like i said, just trying to get it right.

The point is this, a good running, good driving syncro is the sum of many well organized systems. I don't think you can just pick one part of the syncro drive train-start tweaking it-and not expect to have to deal with another downstream system, again, referring especially to a van that spends all its time in the mountains. BUT - I have also driven my van coast to coast, on the beach, in the desert, in the woods, in the rocks and on the freeways, and honestly, except for a handful of times, I don't feel that the suspension lift, especially when weighed against the cost of achieving it, ever benefitted my experience
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jsmitch11
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: .. Reply with quote

silver syncro...thanks for clarifying. I am in the middle of a full rebuild and so the answers people have here are having a direct impact on my decisions.
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DeadSetMonkey
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still greatly appreciate all the words flying on this thread.

Understanding everything is subjective... And suspension 'feel' etc is in the eye of the beholder.

I'm thinking I might do well with 'stock ride height' (which I will measure and post my current center to fender soon). Heard great things about Schwenke...

Maybe try to stay closer to the 'stock' wheel diameter when I go to my 15in wheel. BFGS A/T KOs only come 75sidewall, in 15in... Geolanders come 70... And look plenty strong, maybe not as rugged... But better diameter...

Maybe keep the burley UCAs... Sure they are expensive, but maybe they'll save a few UCA bushing redos down the road?

Sounds like everyone, almost, agrees that urethane bushings are the way to go, compared with stock...

As for shocks.... Lots of folks love their OMEs, lots of folks say they are too stiff... I want sturdy... But not 'rattle my bones over every bump' sturdy.... What shock options are folks using... What of the fox shocks I see from GoWesty? They are kinda pricey, and i assumed for a more offroad purpose??

I know this topic will start to spin out of control... Eventually... But I, of one, am still benefitting... So far the thread has stayed pretty on point!!!

Thanks all
D
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DeadSetMonkey
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeadSetMonkey wrote:

As for shocks.... Lots of folks love their OMEs, lots of folks say they are too stiff... I want sturdy... But not 'rattle my bones over every bump' sturdy.... What shock options are folks using... What of the fox shocks I see from GoWesty? They are kinda pricey, and i assumed for a more offroad purpose??


Quick read of Fox related posts..... Looks like a can of worms to get those dialed in... Better stick to simpler shocks...
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