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Stefan5
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Engine options Reply with quote

I have a 1981 Vanagon with a 1986 1.8L Jetta engine. What more modern engine would work with the adapter plate that I currently have?
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is your engine in at the diesel 50* angle or the upright 15* angle?

if at 50* and if you're trying to keep it cheaper and easier to DIY I'd suggest an ABA 2.0l from a 93-99 jetta/golf

if at 15* you can go ABA or TDI or best power 1.8T but each step is more complicated and $$ than the last.

you'll have alot to learn as it's mostly DIY self service in these options.

but why you want a bigger motor? besides the obvious I guess.
but here's a pic of my 1.8L digifant in my 1980 aircooled van towing another broken van for ~1k miles in 95* FL heat.

if you're down shifting too often, which the I4 doesn't mind the rpms (I spent most of those miles in 3rd gear 4500rpms) then I'd suggest you upgrade the trans to an 84+ which would require all the linkage to be modified as well. but the 84+ have shorter gears that would work better with the limited torque of the smaller I4
I've gone down these trains of thoughts for quite some time.. I'm upgrading to 1.8T but it's no small jump in engine management complexity.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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MidwestDrifter
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the above advice.

What is your reason for wanting a "modern" engine?

If it is for more power, you could swap a 2.0l block in to gain a little extra power.

The ABA route with motoronic management is a good option if you want a modern (OBDII) engine management system.

The 1.8T and TDI options are great for power, and will provide modern management. They are substantially more expensive though.

I have a 1.8l engine and management on my westy. I have a 2.0L block (from an ABA engine) my power is adequate and I routinely break 19MPG.

There are a number of I4 conversion threads on this forum read around, the information is out there.

Very Happy
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2000 Jetta TDI
1982 Diesel Westy W/ ABA I4 hybrid (Sold)
Epic Road Tripping since 08/05/12 | http://VagariesAbound.blogspot.com/
My Current Build | http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41215
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also maybe an AEG? (AEG has longer intake runners.... but puts the throttle body at the "wrong end") Motronic OBD1 is simpler, but OBD2 offers easier chipping capabilities.

If your engine lid is unmodified, chances are your 1.8 is installed at 50 like a diesel Vanagon engine. If so......

Here's a pic of the "lump" created by the ABA intake manifold (AEG somewhat similar in that regard?):

http://vanagolf.shutterfly.com/324

more pics of an ABA install:

http://vanagolf.shutterfly.com/310

Neil.

AEG intake

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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Watercooler
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All watercooled VW 4 cylinders from cars have the same bell housing bolt pattern. Wink
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Stefan5
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like the ABA block option may be the cheapest and most simple option. I'll do some reading about the block swap. The engine was installed with diesel components and sits at 50 degrees

My van is automatic. If I can bolt any VW water cooled engine to the adapter plate is it also the case that my current flexplate will bolt to the end of any crankshaft?
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YES
but some donor I4s (automatics) may have an "adapter" fitted to the end of the crank you'll have to remove. the crank bolt pattern is the same.

I haven't done the ABA or the ABA/Digifant head route yet. but found this post on VWVORTEX
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5041826-1.8T-vrs-2.0aba-in-a-auto-vanagon
Don Hanson wrote:
I combined the top end of my previous 1.8 l 8valve with a 'new' 93 Jetta ABA bottom and I couldn't be more pleased with the results. A very nice motor!

My 1.8liter came with my van (an 84 with a 5sp manual tranny and the 50degree style diesel mounting) It has/had digifant EMS. I put about 50k miles on this motor, which came with the van. I had no history on the 1.8l motor, so while it was still going strong and trouble-free, I decided on a pre-emptive swap. I wanted to know what everything looked like inside and to replace the bits that are known to eventually wear out, so I did my homework. The ABA botttom end combined with a 1.8 liter head and EMS gets a good rap for power and dependability, so I decided to go that route.

I found a complete Jetta ABA motor, all the stuff, for $300. 97k miles is what the seller said. The inside of the motor looked almost new. I got most of my parts from these guys

http://www.techtonicstuning.com/main...3a4461f0453986

as well as lots of tech. advice during my swap.

I already had a mild camshaft (Autotech 260?) in my 1.8 liter head. The valves, guides and everything were in fine shape, so the swap involved simply unbolting the parts from the smaller block and re-bolting them onto the ABA block (once I stripped all the parts from that one for future resale) The dual downpipe manifold from the cross flow 2.0 liter head bolted right on the 1.8 liter head and is said to provide an additional 10-15hp...so I went ahead and installed that. I had to have another set of primary exhaust tubes bent and welded to complete the dual downpipe exhaust. I could have just bolted on the head, unchanged and saved time and money...but I had the better exhaust in hand from my $300 donor motor.

I used the distributor from my 1.8 liter block...for some reason. I think now that was not a necessary part to swap over, but Techtonics tuning has a bushing to adapt the dist...so it was not much trouble. It turns out my previous block also had a knock sensor system...I think that was one reason I swapped the dist...

The only other even slightly complex task was making the hoses fit onto the ABA oil cooler/filter housing. My 1.8liter didn't have that type filter/cooler heat exchanger. A bit of head scratching and some jig-saw puzzel stuff with all the available hoses and fittings and I got the right plumbing going. That cooler/heat exchanger lowers the highway oil temperature by almost 20f...a fact I was skeptical until I installed the proper hoses and an oil temp gauge and actually saw it for myself.

What else?...Oh, use the diesel vanagon exhaust mounts, available from our Vanagon vendors. Also, I have been using mid grade fuel on the recommendation of the Techtonics Tuning guys. I understand that the compression ratio of a 1.8 liter head on an ABA bottom is slightly higher than the old 1.8 liter. I have yet to hear any detonation. I put about $600 total into the swap-over.....not counting the exhaust system which I think I got ripped-off on...the 'Artiste' who welded it up for me...he was really pretty inept..a good welder, but it was painful to watch him cutting tubes and missing the length by inches..to go back and try again and again...all at $85per hour for shop time...
I will probably make a lot of that back when I sell off the ABA intake, AC comperssor, PS pump, Alternator, WP, etc etc.

This motor, running with the 5sp and normal vanagon tires gives me 23-24miles per gallon at about 65mph...where the engine is turning at 3700rpm. It will happily and with good power, go up to around 6200rpm (my chosen redline). I think the mild cam and my properly done free-flowing exhaust system (thanks to techtonics tuning for advice on configuring that properly for proven best power delivery) really gives me wide and strong power band. With this "new" motor, I have to be careful...I looked down at the speedo and find myself going really fast sometimes now. This motor is so....sweet sounding...

Hope this post helps someone.. Don Hanson
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my POV (15 "upright" "bump" image: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GZShteoBoKg/UPB...OPen.jpg), a stock ABA @ 50 "bump" might be liveable but as Dan points to, and IMO, for a 2WD Vanagon (i.e. a Doka can easily do a 15) the 2.0 block + 1.8 8V head @ 50 makes more sense.

I'm still curious about using Motronic on the 2.0 + 1.8 IIRC there's some info here on that. From my POV, to do this is not rocket surgery level stuff IF a more or less plug & play option is available for fuelling the Digi head. I have seen online images of adaptors for the Motronic throttle body to Digi intake.

I mention Motronic b/c for some, pulling the engine, harness, ECU from an ABA donor car may be more cost effective. And in the long run, maybe it's easier to find new/good used Motronic parts than Digifant?

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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MidwestDrifter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm still curious about using Motronic on the 2.0 + 1.8 IIRC there's some info here on that. From my POV, to do this is not rocket surgery level stuff IF a more or less plug & play option is available for fuelling the Digi head. I have seen online images of adaptors for the Motronic throttle body to Digi intake.


From my reading (if I find the source I will post) the motronic and digifant 2 injectors are the same fuel rate and have the same connector. Thus you could use the stock digifant injectors and fuel rail. I am uncertain if the fuel pressures are the same, but that is easily remedied with an external fuel pressure regulator. That leaves adapting the throttle body, which is simply a matter of making a adapter tube/plate. The crank position sensor, distributor and other sensors can be easily bolted directly to the 2.0 block.

On my list is to do the motronic upgrade on my 2.0+1.8 head. Which fits entirely under the deck lid.

FYI the ABA serpentine belt setup can be used (which is supposed to reduce vibrations?).
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2000 Jetta TDI
1982 Diesel Westy W/ ABA I4 hybrid (Sold)
Epic Road Tripping since 08/05/12 | http://VagariesAbound.blogspot.com/
My Current Build | http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41215
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MidwestDrifter wrote:
Quote:
I'm still curious about using Motronic on the 2.0 + 1.8


From my reading (if I find the source I will post) the motronic and digifant 2 injectors are the same fuel rate and have the same connector. Thus you could use the stock digifant injectors and fuel rail. I am uncertain if the fuel pressures are the same,

....

FYI the ABA serpentine belt setup can be used (which is supposed to reduce vibrations?).


Good to know. Thanks.

Quick look at my 96016 Haynes (Rabbit etc.) and A3 Bentley....

fuel system pressure is 36 PSI (running) and 29 PSI (residual) for Digifant II and Motronic.

The accessory bracket vibration thing may have been limited to the early Tiico?
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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MidwestDrifter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't find the exact source with the injector rates. I believe they (digi and motronic) are around 200cc/min @ 3bar.

Here is a cross reference database of injector flow rates by bosch part number.

http://www.witchhunter.com/injectordata1.php

I have spare motronic and digi injectors in my parts bin somewhere, when I get a chance I will pull them and check the part numbers against the above site.
_________________
2004 Dodge/Mercedes Sprinter (Custom Camper)
2000 Jetta TDI
1982 Diesel Westy W/ ABA I4 hybrid (Sold)
Epic Road Tripping since 08/05/12 | http://VagariesAbound.blogspot.com/
My Current Build | http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41215
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MidwestDrifter
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update with injector info for motronic VS Digifant.

I checked the digifant injectors I am using in my I4. They are 0280150902 and they flow 218cc @ 3Bar.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The motronic injectors that I had lying around (pulled from an ABA golf 200?) are 0280150955 and they flow 196cc @ 3Bar.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


They use the same mounting setup and connector so they should interchange. The flow rates are within about 15%, so a fuel pressure change would probably be need if using digi with motronic or vice versa. Of course since they mount the same way, one could just swap the injectors.

I am thinking that I will eventually swap from digi2 to motronic on my ABA counterflow. Digi2 is simple and reliable, but lacking in diagnostics.
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2000 Jetta TDI
1982 Diesel Westy W/ ABA I4 hybrid (Sold)
Epic Road Tripping since 08/05/12 | http://VagariesAbound.blogspot.com/
My Current Build | http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41215
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I am curious about is the left Driver's side frame rail.
that I had to clearence for the intake on my 1.8l counterflow digifant intake manifold.
I'd love to see how well a 2.0aba base with a 1.8digi head interfers with the frame rail. as the block is ~19mm taller.

anyone able to share a few pics?

thanks.
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MidwestDrifter
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd love to see how well a 2.0aba base with a 1.8digi head interfers with the frame rail. as the block is ~19mm taller.


I try to snap a few picks when I am under mine this week.

The following is based on my setup which is a 1982 diesel westy running a ABA block and counterflow digifant head with stock mounting hardware.

It depends on what intake manifold you use. The longer runner manifold that has the throttle body on the rear (back of vehicle) side of the intake will interfere substantially with both the wheel well sheetmetal and the frame rail. (When used with the ABA block)


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The shorter runner manifold (from a 80s cabriolet) has the throttle body at the forward (front of vehicle) side of the manifold needs only about a 6x6 in square cut from the drivers side wheel well sheet metal. The throttle body clears the frame rail by about 3/4 of an inch. No cutting needed there. I currently have this on my conversion.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Their may be a shorter runner manifold that opens to the rear, but I have never seen one in person.
_________________
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1982 Diesel Westy W/ ABA I4 hybrid (Sold)
Epic Road Tripping since 08/05/12 | http://VagariesAbound.blogspot.com/
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joseph928
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: engine Reply with quote

Blue Bay Bus Power wise my 1.8 head on a 2.0 block has more power then my GW2.3 in my syncro. And it fits under my deck. Why would you need anymore power then this! Yes just add a 2.0 block. It's modern enough for me. More power then what came in it. Very Happy
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Last edited by joseph928 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my 1.8digifant intake is from a 89-91 jetta and opens to the engine belts end (rear) and I have a cross over pipe to the aircleaner mounted more on the pass side.
I only had to cut a "swedge" fromthe DS frame rail, problem is while I'm ok with it.. I won't recommend it to a friend's van as her van is so nicely original.

I'll probably end up with the crossflow ABA and reposition the engine lower to accomodate the intake interference with the lid. but I guess time will tell on that yet unapproved project
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info MWD.

I recently picked up a CIS head and intake. Am still toying with the idea of welding a CIS or Digi intake to the ABA lower plenum. Both would need to be cut but I wonder if milling the ABA plenum where it meets the head (thanks for that tip xxOOxx) then making the angles work at each part, would allow for the intake to clear the lid?

The runner spacing may not allow all this though.

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I remember correctly, the intake port spacing the ABA is nearly identical to the earlier I4s. The ports are shaped differently of course.

Angling the whole intake on the ABA head may get you close to clearing. Maybe close enough that a very small spacer would work?

There supposedly is an intake that will fit the ABA engine, but doesn't have the portion that goes back over the head? I don't know the engine code, but it was supposedly a euro-only engine. I will see if I can find the german forum where I saw it.
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2004 Dodge/Mercedes Sprinter (Custom Camper)
2000 Jetta TDI
1982 Diesel Westy W/ ABA I4 hybrid (Sold)
Epic Road Tripping since 08/05/12 | http://VagariesAbound.blogspot.com/
My Current Build | http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41215
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MidwestDrifter wrote:
If I remember correctly, the intake port spacing the ABA is nearly identical to the earlier I4s. The ports are shaped differently of course.

Angling the whole intake on the ABA head may get you close to clearing. Maybe close enough that a very small spacer would work?

.


Right. Maybe. My thought was keep enough of the ABA lower plenum so the ABA fuel rail and injectors would be used. I should stop speculating I buy a darn used lower plenum!

This computer doesn't access images well.

Digifant has injectors at the head? That may be another reason why I was thinking of a hybrid manifold.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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nemobuscaptain
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MidwestDrifter wrote:
Quote:
I'd love to see how well a 2.0aba base with a 1.8digi head interfers with the frame rail. as the block is ~19mm taller.


It depends on what intake manifold you use. The longer runner manifold that has the throttle body on the rear (back of vehicle) side of the intake will interfere substantially with both the wheel well sheetmetal and the frame rail. (When used with the ABA block)


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The shorter runner manifold (from a 80s cabriolet) has the throttle body at the forward (front of vehicle) side of the manifold needs only about a 6x6 in square cut from the drivers side wheel well sheet metal. The throttle body clears the frame rail by about 3/4 of an inch. No cutting needed there. I currently have this on my conversion.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
.


Does anyone know the years on these shorter manifold intakes? 80s Cabrio equals CIS? Cabrio only? Any vehicles other than the Cabrio have the short intake?
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