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Swiss barndoor license light visor discussion
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EA57RHD
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Swiss barndoor license light visor discussion Reply with quote

I'm starting this topic to hopefully gain more information and pictures on other Swiss visors and confirm the early 50-53 vs late 54-57 theory.

The difference was pointed out to me by Mark Rafferty, so it does appear that there is at least two styles, with the variance being the forward outer corners.

The presumed early style lacks the fuller more rounded corners as the pictured below visor from my 53.
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The later style 54-57 has the fuller rounded corners as pictured below.
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I have pictures of three visors all from 1954-57 Buses and they all match the later style.

I would appreciate if any early 50-53 Swiss Barndoor owner can post detailed pictures to confirm the early vs late theory. Besides the original visor from my 53 Panel, I have no other examples.

Any other information on this topic including the hardware used to install would be welcomed.
NOS Hardware below.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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BeaterBarndoor
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So here are pictures of the 3rd style! Also from a 53 and does make me wonder even more.

They all do appear to me to be die pressed based on the roundness around the edges as they flow into the flat top area and they all seem to be the same exact size and shape aside from the lip changes.
If hand formed I would expect to see some inconsistency in form especially at the corners. Plus its hard to believe that with something like this, they would hand form potentially hundreds.

The one difference I really notice is the brackets. some are crooked,shorter,longer,holes further up or down,holes measure in different placement even on the same unit.

My thought is , if they were all possibly manufactured at the same place ,the changes in shape are basically effects of the outline of the flat metal placed into the die.
With my die, i make the 2 different styles just by having 2 different cut out patterns. So making this 3rd style will just be a matter of making a new pattern.

It does have me wondering if there really is a year change or a pattern inconsistency or even just a progression of change through years not particularly year specific but just being fuller lipped as the years went on

anyway....photos....
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have this one that supposedly came from a '54.
It's a little bit bent.
Details:
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The brackets are in line with the license lens holes so no extra drilling needed:
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It was on a deck lid when I got it (not the deck lid seen above) but I cannot recall what hardware was used.
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BeaterBarndoor
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one you have Everett looks cruder than the rest. almost hand formed looking or could it just look that way because it is mangled? interesting. not one seems to be alike.

this is the hardware that was provided with the 57 version. a little different than the above hardware. I assume its all just general foreign hardware which could vary.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those bolts are different DIN styles. the one is round head and the other cylindrical head. If somebody is interested I can look for the correct DIN numbers. both styles were available and used at the time. round head slotted srews were fading in the 50s /early 60s so might be earlier than the cylindrical set screws.
concerning the tinware itself. I suggest the metal was cut/stamped from sheet into the basic shape(maybe they were even hand cut by an apprentice). Then it would be fed into a stamp mold which would give it the beaded shape.
If the base sheet metal was just a bit off in the stamping mold, it would result in different corners. I assume that , if at all a few hundreds or thousands were made, it was a small company doing this work and they would do with cheap and fast tools. No need to be extremely detailed.
this would result in the different shapes.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djfordmanjack wrote:
... it was a small company doing this work and they would do with cheap and fast tools.

Any idea of the company name?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It hasn't been mentioned here yet, but AMAG is the company that imported all vw's, and some other makes to Switzerland. They would have been the entity that made sure that the different makes conformed to Swiss law. They may have contracted an outside company to manufacture the license visors, but knowing that they later built/assembled some karmann ghias in Switzerland, it is possible that they had a workshop capable of producing them early on. I would love to find out more about who actually produced the visors.

Big thanks to Mark Rafferty for working with EA57RHD and myself to reproduce the license visors. That is my original visor in Mark's pics of the third style. Obviously rusted beyond use, but now I can have an accurately reproduced visor for my June '53 kombi that was originally imported by AMAG and delivered to Zurich. I had originally asked Mark to make a copy of mine, but EA57RHD agreed to send his to Mark as a better example. (Thanks Eddie!) That is when we started to notice all of the differences between each example. I encourage other swiss bus owners to post pics of their visors for comparison. There is always more to learn.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny,
It's always a pleasure dealing with you and Mark, and I had no reservations sending my original visor to Mark to help out a fellow Barndoor owner....

I'm not 100% sure, but I think AMAG probably had an in house manufacturer for these visors. I say this because I noticed that someone on thesamba is selling some NOS Beetle rear fender gravel guards. The add listed them as AMAG Swiss gravel guards. I thought this was pretty interesting.

I have also been in contact with Lindsay (LJay) who owns a Swiss delivered Panel. Lindsay has also been doing some research on AMAG. He just forward me some interesting information which I copied below. Hopefully the link works. A little off topic, but it all ties in;


i have been digging about Amag,i found this thread,it is old but it has some cool info

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/showthread.php?39305-AMAG-lauf-No.5591

seems you can apply for the "wagenkarte" or car card which is a bit like the vw birth certificate that shows all options-hey! they might be more detailed than the vw one! ,still have not been able to find out if you can find out anything without the lauf no but there is contacts to ask ,send a nice email with some pics of the bus,you never know!(just dont send it so arrives in his inbox on monday morning Laughing )

taken straight from that thread:

AMAG Automobil AG
Kundendienst Porsche
Mr. Hansjoerg Kunz
Aarauerstrasse 20
CH-5116 Schinznach-Bad
Switzerland
Telephone:++41 (0) 56 463 9292

[email protected]

or

[email protected]

Also, if you own a Ex-Swiss registered car, you can track down all the previous owners trough the motor vehicule department at the Swiss goverment (cost: approx. US$ 30).


Im going to chase this up,any info i can find is cool ,my van was delivered in primer-why? i wonder if Amag painted it? the thing i would like to find out the most would be what it was bought/used for-long shot!! let me know if you find anthing intresting.

cheers Lindsay
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently started talking to Mark Rafferty after I saw his classified ad for the reproduction visors. He put me in touch with Eddie.
I made a photobucket album for Mark and Eddie to look at to compare different styles of visors. http://s1273.beta.photobucket.com/user/muthashabub...and%20nuts
(Eddie and Mark have used some of my pictures in the photos in this thread from my '57)
I believe mine is the only post-barndoor Swiss visor bus known of at the moment. (I just started to learn about these so anybody feel free to correct me)
I added some of the pictures to my gallery here also because I know photobucket can be a pain sometimes.

Eddie, I sent emails to [email protected] and [email protected]
last September. I got an email from Giovanni saying they had no information on my AMAG bus and referred me to the Volkswagen Museum.
It's very good to know about tracking down previous owners! I will be trying that very soon..

The previous owner of my bus told me something about the visor when I bought the bus 15 years ago, but he was unsure at the time. I think whoever he got the bus from told him.
It's good to finally have a better knowledge of these visors. I look forward to seeing and learning more. Hopefully we will see more people will come out with theirs!.

Edit: That is very cool to see Everett. I had heard about the ones that line up with the license light holes. Does anybody else think that means there were 2 different companies making the visors?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muthashabubu wrote:

I believe mine is the only post-barndoor Swiss visor bus known of at the moment.


FYI a friend of mine has an ex Swiss and AMAG stamped 57 Kombi and it doesn't have the visor.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
FYI a friend of mine has an ex Swiss and AMAG stamped 57 Kombi and it doesn't have the visor.


Can you or your friend post some pictures? Is your friend the original owner and is the 57 Kombi still in original paint?

Often times, these visors where just removed by the PO's

If the bus has had multiple owners and multiple re-sprays then it is possible that the visor was removed and the holes welded.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad this thread took off,nice one Eddie Very Happy

I see in the pictures you posted Everett that the plate you mounts on the lamp bolts but mines had separate holes drilled

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


my bus is a funny one,a swiss delivered in primer 54' dd with a UK 1976 plate on it!

Its wierd i took heaps of photos and measurements of my plate on request for Gunther(ambu55)and then about a week later Eddie pops up asking about it,Mark is making them and there is a thread about them!

My plate is a bit of a mess but...

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Mark,my visor was held on by bolts and nuts like that,i remeber because i using vise grips and a huge flat head screwdriver to remove them and remember thinking that they were very crude,nothing at all like metric.

i was going to throw it all away!the bolts are long gone.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not in OE paint anymore. Maybe I can see the pics before resto begun,the car came originally from Switzerland. I really can't remember if there were holes welded up. My friend works in China, but maybe I can meet him on his vacation soon. Bus is close to me, wil look next time i'm in the garage.
Does the visor make sense on a post BD bus ? the light and lid are placed so much lower on the car, emitting less light to the following cars. Just a thought.

EA57RHD wrote:
Quote:
FYI a friend of mine has an ex Swiss and AMAG stamped 57 Kombi and it doesn't have the visor.


Can you or your friend post some pictures? Is your friend the original owner and is the 57 Kombi still in original paint?

Often times, these visors where just removed by the PO's

If the bus has had multiple owners and multiple re-sprays then it is possible that the visor was removed and the holes welded.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lindsay,
Thanks for posting the pictures of your visor.

Yours looks consistent in design to all the post 53 visors that I have seen thus far.

The visor that Everett posted does look a bit different then all the others, and the holes match up with the license light screws unlike all the others. I wonder the origin of that one too...

djfordmanjack wrote;
Quote:
Does the visor make sense on a post BD bus ?


I do believe the visor was used up to 1957 or when ever the deck lid stopped using the center brake light. I agree with you though, it probably was not needed on post Barndoor buses for the reason that you mentioned.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djfordmanjack wrote:
It's not in OE paint anymore. Maybe I can see the pics before resto begun,the car came originally from Switzerland. I really can't remember if there were holes welded up. My friend works in China, but maybe I can meet him on his vacation soon. Bus is close to me, wil look next time i'm in the garage.
Does the visor make sense on a post BD bus ? the light and lid are placed so much lower on the car, emitting less light to the following cars. Just a thought.

EA57RHD wrote:
Quote:
FYI a friend of mine has an ex Swiss and AMAG stamped 57 Kombi and it doesn't have the visor.


Can you or your friend post some pictures? Is your friend the original owner and is the 57 Kombi still in original paint?

Often times, these visors where just removed by the PO's

If the bus has had multiple owners and multiple re-sprays then it is possible that the visor was removed and the holes welded.


That is good to know djfordmanjack, I would be very interested in finding out if it has had the holes welded in or if it came without one.
Can you find out the build month for us of your friends Kombi? Maybe they put them on busses until they ran out of visors?
There was a RHD Swiss '57 AMAG bus in the classifieds last fall but I have not received a reply as to whether or not it had a license visor.
I asked for the seller to give the new owner my information but have not heard from them. That bus was a May '57. Mine is a June '57.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EA57RHD wrote:
The visor that Everett posted does look a bit different then all the others, and the holes match up with the license light screws unlike all the others. I wonder the origin of that one too...


It came off that 51/54 Deluxe Bus that was around many years ago, if you guys remember that one?

I'm not sure of the exact history of that Bus as it's a little unclear and it was sort of pieced together.

Only photo I could find quickly:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I believe it went to Japan some time ago.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I checked my files from when I did electrical work on the bus and, YES it even hadn't the holes welded up, they are still there ! Very Happy

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I will try to read the AMAG nr, the plaque is still there. And I will ask Bart if he did remove the visor, if it was still there at all and if he still has it. Will post pics in case.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EA57RHD wrote:

djfordmanjack wrote;
Quote:
Does the visor make sense on a post BD bus ?


I do believe the visor was used up to 1957 or when ever the deck lid stopped using the center brake light. I agree with you though, it probably was not needed on post Barndoor buses for the reason that you mentioned.


yes and that brings up another idea! Maybe the visor wasn't really used to shield the licence plate light, but the red brake light from shining on the licence plate. I have no idea why the Swiss would do that, but then the Swiss are crazy people anyways Laughing ( no offense, I have dear friends from Switzerland).
That would make sense why they used it up to the last decklidbrake light busses.
Or it was used for both reasons as a divider between licence plate and brake light, like in the pope's nose of a split Brezel bug.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
Quote:
It came off that 51/54 Deluxe Bus that was around many years ago, if you guys remember that one?

I'm not sure of the exact history of that Bus as it's a little unclear and it was sort of pieced together.


Thanks for that pic Everett. I do remember this deluxe but it has been some time now. I wonder if it was a Swiss delivered bus originally...


djfordmanjack wrote:
Quote:
I checked my files from when I did electrical work on the bus and, YES it even hadn't the holes welded up, they are still there !


Great picture. I knew it had to have the visor or at least evidence that one was installed. Keep the thread posted if you find out about the actual visor.

I would guess that the license light visor was used merely to divert more of the already weak 6V light to the license plate. I can't imagine that the light would be bright enough to blind or distract a following motorist.....But anything is possible at this point.
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