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Lifter noise - please help!
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garryv84
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject: Lifter noise - please help! Reply with quote

I have done lost of searching, reading and here is what I have done.

Rebuilt 2.2 with 1.25 ratio rockers, I built the engine.
New OE supplier lifters from GoWesty + 10% site
Soaked them in oil overnight
Tried Marvel Mystery Oil
Tried adjusting them at 1/2, 1, 1 1/2 , and 2 turns. They are at 2 turns now.
Tried rebuilt lifters from Van Cafe.
Tried 20-50 Royal purple and Castro 5-50 oils.
Tried adjusting to Zero lash and idle for awhile to get all the air out.

The ticking sound is always there when a start it up. This is a daily driver. It does not matter if it sits for 1 hour, 8hours, or 1 day. The noise is always there at start up and goes away after 15 min.

What causes the lifter to bleed down? Are the lifters now made cheap? I have found some Febi lifters on Amazon.

Febi-Bilstein Engine Camshaft Follower by Bilstein is 35.02 each
Febi Cam Follower by Bilstein is 17.15 each

They seem to be the same, but what is the difference? Must suppliers sell Febi lifters for 35 to 30 dollars each. Why are they so expensive? Are they of high quality?

Thanks for your help, I have just tried about everything and need advise.
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Petervw
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Lifter noise - please help! Reply with quote

garryv84 wrote:
I have done lost of searching, reading and here is what I have done.

Rebuilt 2.2 with 1.25 ratio rockers, I built the engine.
New OE supplier lifters from GoWesty + 10% site
Soaked them in oil overnight
Tried Marvel Mystery Oil
Tried adjusting them at 1/2, 1, 1 1/2 , and 2 turns. They are at 2 turns now.
Tried rebuilt lifters from Van Cafe.
Tried 20-50 Royal purple and Castro 5-50 oils.
Tried adjusting to Zero lash and idle for awhile to get all the air out.

The ticking sound is always there when a start it up. This is a daily driver. It does not matter if it sits for 1 hour, 8hours, or 1 day. The noise is always there at start up and goes away after 15 min.

What causes the lifter to bleed down? Are the lifters now made cheap? I have found some Febi lifters on Amazon.

Febi-Bilstein Engine Camshaft Follower by Bilstein is 35.02 each
Febi Cam Follower by Bilstein is 17.15 each

They seem to be the same, but what is the difference? Must suppliers sell Febi lifters for 35 to 30 dollars each. Why are they so expensive? Are they of high quality?

Thanks for your help, I have just tried about everything and need advise.
..as you, I bought the same lifters from gowesty ..16 of them almost 2yrs ago for $10 ea and a super deal of the time, especially when they cost like $1 to manufacture...I installed with 1 turn in .. using a 5w/20 oil after letting the container sit in the sun to warm up ..(no soaking or taking the lifters apart and have done the same on 3 other occasions)..concerning my van of that time,.. when starting after 2 months of sitting in warm or cold weather, it would start with barely a tick..once maximum oil pressure is reached, the noise is gone..a few seconds at the most..if you can, park on level ground and keep the oil level just slightly above the full mark..(no more than 1/4 qt extra)..also experimented with a "1/2 turn" with no change and left at that setting..also just possible that the lifter bore(s) in your case are slightly enlarged..or you got a set of poor quality control lifters..I think it's kinda of hit and miss since they come from China or similiar.. scroll 12 items down to the vanagon lifter @ http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/481808717/Auto_Cam_Follower_Hydraulic_Lifter_for.html
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for the heck of it why not contact an outfit who sells high performance lifter's?
Rhoads, Engle, Isky, are a couple of well known camshaft & lifter manufactures.

There has to be a reason this happens all of the time--besides the fact that they are laying on thier sides-

And these are new lifter's bleeding down--after a too short of time sitting.

There is a way to bench bleed them--sitting in a can of oil without working the plungers may be the problem--
Not sure who mfg'd them either--
I wouldn't be real happy with this set up myself.

Make a couple of phone calls and see what turns up.
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Last edited by Terry Kay on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Re: Lifter noise - please help! Reply with quote

garryv84 wrote:
I have done lost of searching, reading and here is what I have done.

Rebuilt 2.2 with 1.25 ratio rockers, I built the engine.
New OE supplier lifters from GoWesty + 10% site
Soaked them in oil overnight
Tried Marvel Mystery Oil
Tried adjusting them at 1/2, 1, 1 1/2 , and 2 turns. They are at 2 turns now.
Tried rebuilt lifters from Van Cafe.
Tried 20-50 Royal purple and Castro 5-50 oils.
Tried adjusting to Zero lash and idle for awhile to get all the air out.

The ticking sound is always there when a start it up. This is a daily driver. It does not matter if it sits for 1 hour, 8hours, or 1 day. The noise is always there at start up and goes away after 15 min.

What causes the lifter to bleed down? Are the lifters now made cheap? I have found some Febi lifters on Amazon.

Febi-Bilstein Engine Camshaft Follower by Bilstein is 35.02 each
Febi Cam Follower by Bilstein is 17.15 each

They seem to be the same, but what is the difference? Must suppliers sell Febi lifters for 35 to 30 dollars each. Why are they so expensive? Are they of high quality?

Thanks for your help, I have just tried about everything and need advise.


How long ago did you build the engine?
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garryv84
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3 months ago.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garryv84 wrote:
3 months ago.


How many miles on it?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5000 miles
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garryv84 wrote:
5000 miles


Have you always had this lifter issue, or did it just start? Did you break it in with dino oil?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes for 5000miles
Yes, Joe gibbs oil, then dino oil, then syntec.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garryv84 wrote:
Yes for 5000miles
Yes, Joe gibbs oil, then dino oil, then syntec.


OK, sounds right. Are you using a filter with a check valve?

Sorry for a million questions- Something's not right, and we need to eliminate the simple stuff first.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mann oil filter

I think there are only cheap lifters made now. They are bleeding down very fast. Just ordered Febi lifters from Amazon, 35.00 each. Lets see what they look like, I can always return them.
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jberger
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garryv84 wrote:
Mann oil filter

I think there are only cheap lifters made now. They are bleeding down very fast. Just ordered Febi lifters from Amazon, 35.00 each. Lets see what they look like, I can always return them.


I have had tons of brand new lifters not perform well..

I always bench bleed them. That requires taking them apart and filling with oil then pressing them back together in a vise or arbor press. You can tell by the way they press together if there is going to be an issue. If they go together with very little effort, they will bleed down every time.

By the way, I have never seen a lifter that you can bleed without taking apart. They all have a metering disc that prevents access to the check valve for burping.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jberger,

These have a small hole in the center with a ball check valve. So you can open them up, fill them, push the ball valve open while pushing down and air bubbles are allowed out. When you've gotten them pushed in enough, refit the snap ring. They'll get pumped up more in operation and also blow any residual out.

So on the engine. I am reading this and also kinda wondering what the issue is. It's an outlyer, but I once had a buddy rebuild his engine and somehow he ended up with a dipstick that was not correct, so was having issues. Any chance of this here? Wrong dipstick, oil lower than you think, etc?

Also, what about the valve springs? Could they be incorrect and are causing the valves to float, or not cycle correctly?

Do you think it's several/all lifters, or is it just a couple?

Finally, my wbx quickly got rings of crud on the intake valve stems from old gas residue in the tank, which led to clicking and lifter issues. Take a very bright light and see if you can detect any crud on the valve stems, exhaust vs intakes. It only gets on the intakes. I thought of in in case your van sat a while.

DougM
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IdahoDoug wrote:
jberger,

These have a small hole in the center with a ball check valve. So you can open them up, fill them, push the ball valve open while pushing down and air bubbles are allowed out. When you've gotten them pushed in enough, refit the snap ring. They'll get pumped up more in operation and also blow any residual out.

So on the engine. I am reading this and also kinda wondering what the issue is. It's an outlyer, but I once had a buddy rebuild his engine and somehow he ended up with a dipstick that was not correct, so was having issues. Any chance of this here? Wrong dipstick, oil lower than you think, etc?

Also, what about the valve springs? Could they be incorrect and are causing the valves to float, or not cycle correctly?

Do you think it's several/all lifters, or is it just a couple?

Finally, my wbx quickly got rings of crud on the intake valve stems from old gas residue in the tank, which led to clicking and lifter issues. Take a very bright light and see if you can detect any crud on the valve stems, exhaust vs intakes. It only gets on the intakes. I thought of in in case your van sat a while.

DougM


I have taken apart dozens of sets of lifters and have never seen one that allows a probe to be inserted into the hole in the cup all the way to the check valve. All the ones I've been exposed to have a small metal disc with ribs on it in the way of the oil passage which is a type of metering valve to slow down the flow of oil up the pushrod. If the metering disc were not there then you would be able to bench bleed them without taking them apart.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This topic also involves a newly rebuilt motor and I suspect just maybe the oil pressure is not up to spec to completely fill the lifters..(you can still have a very small amount of air in the lifters and will run quiet for most people). I would suggest checking the oil pressure first before installing the next set of lifters coming from amazon...even if you found that the oil pressure was on the low side, I wouldn't try to artificially increase the pressure with a thicker oil.. Maybe, I have been just lucky with my experiences, but then again, excellent oil pressure is a prerequisite before installation..it's hard to "fault the lifters" if one doesn't know the oil pressure being produced ... under the topic heading "Oil Selection" ..VW specs are 42psi with sae30 at 175F @2500 rpm [email protected] http://www.ratwell.com/technical/HydraulicLifters.html#airbound .. on my own personal vehicle the numbers are close.. 43psi with 5W/20 @ 3000 rpm on very hot day with the cooling fan recycling... if I remember reading from a long time ago..one of Boston Bobs articles about valve ajustments also involves doing a "leakdown test for valve closure...maybe somebody can find and post it..
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