1987 Westy in Bay Area with low compression

[kluzi]

i just bought a westy and found out later ( ), that the compression on cylinder 1 & 3 is 90psi and on 2&4 i can't get the spark plugs removed. Van drives ok, ( i believe). About 65 mph with upper green rpm's.

In case i need a rebuild or buy a rebuild, who in the bay area is trustworthy and affordable?

Any info would be very much appreciated. Thanks

[Red Ryder]

Well, where to start. Sounds like you may have bypassed the sage advice to have a pre-purchase inspection (and it’s equally-wise companion, “Change those fuel lines!”). You will definitely need to remove the old spark plugs from the other two cylinders (if just to install a new set with your also-recommended tuneup). If performed correctly a compression test is helpful but not definitive. Lack of a good seal at the plug hole, poor technique, or a cheap/inaccurate gauge are just a few factors. Try a leak down test as well. Any white or dark smoke in your exhaust?
_________________
“Most everyone’s mad here. You may have noticed I am not quite all there myself.” — Cheshire Cat, Adventures of Alice in Wonderland

“Scarlett” — 1990 Vanagon Carat Wolfsburg Edition
Tornado Red

[campism]

Be careful removing those last two plugs. Try applying some PB Blaster and let that soak into the threads before you use serious muscle and long levers. And welcome to '87 Land!
_________________
'87 Westy in Wolfram Grey Metallic

[kluzi]

Yeah, i should have done a compression test. But i lack the necessary equipment to perform one. I trusted the guy. I dont believe he fooled me.
No smoke of any color visible at the exhaust.
I did replace the fuel lines and waterpump though. I am just confused how i am still able to get 60 to 65 miles an hour with that bad of a compression
on 2 cylinders. And yes, i will soak the 2 remaining spark plugs before i try to remove them. I really appreciate your guy's advice.
It does slow down on the uphill though.
If i do need a rebuild, where would i go?? G

[bobbyblack]

There's a saying that goes way back about your endeavor;

VW, making a mechanics out of owner's everywhere, or something like that..

So, my take is: do it. Really do it, like, yourself. Its better for everything and of course the planet for YOU to do it yourself.

There's books and such. And TS, of course
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[danfromsyr]

lookslike the Old Volks home is nearby

I'd give them a call or visit and see what they recommend

https://goo.gl/maps/hyZkYvUTjvW3Picw5

3921 Soquel Dr, Soquel, CA 95073

(831) 475-3394

if you are looking for somebody closer and cheaper
go into the bathroom, turn on the light and point at the mirror..
say that's NOT the guy...
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[termuehlen]

I wouldn't sweat the low compression numbers yet. Keep working on soaking the seized spark plugs. If you do a search here for key words "compression testing" authored by "tencentlife" you will learn that compression readings in a wbx can be inconsistent.

If you get down the road and need an engine or a rebuild I would recommend the following:

Ben Beaudrault is local to you. He rebuilds engines every so often and lists them for sale in the classifieds here. Here is an old ad of his:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2569759

Vivid vans from British Columbia just opened up a shop in Santa Cruz. I think their focus is on larger dollar van builds but they may be able to offer you some help.

http://www.vividvans.com/

Finally, Valley Wagonworks up in San Rafael is a fantastic shop and well worth your effort to make the trip across the Golden Gate. They are an honest shop and work efficiently to keep your costs more reasonable.
_________________
1988 Westfalia automatic Subaru OBD1
1986 syncro tintop wbx

[kluzi]

termuehlen,
Thank you soo much for that info, I will certainly take your advice as well as contact those 2 shops. Gonna keep ya posted.
Sincerely
georg

[E1]

While I agree you should learn to check compression yourself, if me at your juncture of a big decision you might let a good mechanic do it — and dare I suggest, one that has nothing to gain by your decision to either keep what you have or do a rebuild.

If such a disinterested mechanic can’t be found, then do it yourself — and don’t be shy about asking exactly how to do it so you can trust the numbers and the inevitable expenses that would follow.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[zerotofifty]

90 psi on two, with the plugs in the other side, with a unknow calibrated gage. No worry yet

1.. compression must be run with all plugs removed, not removing all plugs may result in low readings. remove all plugs and retest test should also be ran on warmed up motor incase you dont know.

2.. gage may be off, that is why it is very important to check all cylinders and look for differences, vast difference using same gage may indicate a bad cylinder. you may end up finding all four read 90, all do to a faulty gage.
before pulling a motor for low compression if all four read sameish, I recommend a second gage for retest, a good quality gage.

3... A leak down test can be run as confirmatory.

4..Affordable???? In this economy, S.F. Bay Area prices? hahahaha Learn to do it yourself, save a lot.

5. I ran my Van until one cylinder dropped to 65PSI other three were ok, a little down on power but not too bad. Had an internally water leaky head gasket.

If miles is low, and oil pressure excellent, maybe just a top end job is needed. this can save you money verses a full rebuild, but is not a good long term idea if oil pressure is low, and bottom end very high miles on it. you need to assess this.

Jansen Enterprise in Belmont does very excellent work, not cheap, not quick, but very good. Ken Jansen can build a power increased motor if thats your thing.
_________________
Give peace a chance. No American war with Russia!

[zerotofifty]

90 psi on two, with the plugs in the other side, with a unknow calibrated gage. No worry yet

1.. compression must be run with all plugs removed, not removing all plugs may result in low readings. remove all plugs and retest test should also be ran on warmed up motor incase you dont know.

2.. gage may be off, that is why it is very important to check all cylinders and look for differences, vast difference using same gage may indicate a bad cylinder. you may end up finding all four read 90, all do to a faulty gage.
before pulling a motor for low compression if all four read sameish, I recommend a second gage for retest, a good quality gage.

3... A leak down test can be run as confirmatory.

4..Affordable???? In this economy, S.F. Bay Area prices? hahahaha Learn to do it yourself, save a lot.

5. I ran my Van until one cylinder dropped to 65PSI other three were ok, a little down on power but not too bad. Had an internally water leaky head gasket.

If miles is low, and oil pressure excellent, maybe just a top end job is needed. this can save you money verses a full rebuild, but is not a good long term idea if oil pressure is low, and bottom end very high miles on it. you need to assess this.

Jansen Enterprise in Belmont does very excellent work, not cheap, not quick, but very good. Ken Jansen can build a power increased motor if thats your thing.
_________________
Give peace a chance. No American war with Russia!

[kluzi]

i really appreciate your guy's advice. I know i got lots to learn. I am going one step at a time. Gonna try and pull the last 2 stuck plugs and then start all over again with compression test and a leak down test. Will report back. Did end up talking to the 1 shop and one "rebuilder" some of you recommended.
I am a little bit more optimistic than i was a week ago.
Thank you all

[E1]

I’ve only done a compression test a few times so look further on this.

And I’m happy to be corrected if wrong.

On my second test ever, I flooded the engine so badly it took a full day to let dry out enough to refire. Since then, I remove both relays in the little black box on driver’s side, and remove the coil wire from the distributor cap, peel back the boot, and rest the wire on the engine block to be grounded.

A few other things:
— I break each plug loose maybe a quarter-turn, and carefully clean any dirt around the plug, with a blade screwdriver in a solvent-soaked rag, remove plug, and clean until spotless *being very careful* that nothing falls into the cylinder!
— make sure to use the short threaded end on the tester. It makes it harder to set and seal fully, which I hand-tighten as tight as I can later remove (there should be a rubber o-ring on the tester to seal to the threadhole), but eliminates any chance of using too long a threaded connector that could get hit by a piston!
— all plugs have to be removed
— someone has to be in cockpit, at full throttle on gas pedal while turning the key
— I crank for at least five seconds for an accurate reading
— I do it with the engine as hot as I can stand working around
— I also think fresh oil produces more compression compared to oil needing changing, as I believe does thicker oil (we use Mobil 1 15/50)
— I check each cylinder at least twice, then unscrew tester and do one more confirmation check
— write down each result, it can be easy to forget

I do not believe lower compression in of itself justifies racing towards a rebuild. If it starts well, runs well, and doesn’t burn lots of oil, I’m sure there’s other areas of the bus to spend money on until a rebuild is absolutely necessary.

Low leakdown results are more concerning I think, our last motor showed over 30% leakdown on one cylinder. It ran about 35,000 miles before failing from an unknown cause last summer.

Good Luck!
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[Howesight]

Hey Kluzi:

As others above have noted, a wasserboxer with an indicated 90psi compression on two cylinders can readily be driveable, even for thousands of miles.

These vehicles, as campers and "secondary" vehicles for many owners, probably get more time not driven than any other class of road-going vehicles. Sitting for long periods of time can cause a number of problems, some of which show up as lower compression on a compression test.

When not operated for months or years, the cylinders sitting with open valves can get light (or sometimes heavy) corrosion. The same applies to the piston rings. This affects the ring seal and in the case of light corrosion, much of the ring seal can be restored just by running the engine. Severe cylinder corrosion is not likely to be overcome by just running the engine, but with 90psi in the compression test, I really doubt any serious cylinder wall corrosion has occurred on your engine.

With non-run time and old, degraded gasoline in the fuel system, the engine can also develop sticky sludge or varnish in the space between the rings and the ring lands, with a similar result - - the ring seal can be compromised. The valve faces and valve seats can also experience corrosion which reduces the effectiveness of the valve seal.

Finally, varnish formation on the valve stem and/or on the valve guides can cause valves (usually the intake valves, which are sprayed with the old gasoline that degrades into varnish) to stick slightly open in their valve guides. On the stock VW 1.9 engine, although I do not recall the specification, the pressure exerted by the valve springs when the valves are closed or nearly-closed is quite light (it's not a racing engine). That light spring pressure is sometimes not enough to overcome the "stiction" in the valve-to-guide area caused by those varnish deposits. (In the worst cases, valves can be so badly stuck by varnish that the associated pushrod can bend.)

So, if there is only light "stiction" in the affected intake valves, then they can fail to seal adequately in a compression test, but still seal nicely when the engine is running. The reason for this? Inertia. The valve, spring and retainer all have some inertia, and that inertia is sufficient at operating speeds (as contrasted with the slow cranking speed) to give that little extra "oomph" of inertia to fully close the affected "sticky" valve.

So, once operating, the actual dynamic compression in the engine that is affected in this way (light corrosion and/or varnish) can be high enough to produce nearly the designed power output, with allowances for wear, of course. Samba poster Wildthings has had success in just driving older, worn engines until low compression tests resolve into "adequate" compression.

You might consider trying that. The 1.9 WBX engine does not experience connecting rod bolt failures the way high-mileage 2.1 engines do, so there is no real risk in this strategy.
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'86 Syncro Westy SVX

[Wildthings]

My $400 '83 1/2 POS had zero compression across the board when I bought it. Once I fixed a few problems it ran as well or better than any other stock Vanagon out there. It used large amounts of cheap Walmart oil and wouldn't start when the temperatures got down to below 10°F or so. The compression actually came up somewhat over time as the oil control rings freed themselves. I ran this engine for 70K additional miles before it died to a freak cause.

Unless you are into recutting the sparkplug threads and installing inserts, I would say to let a shop do the removal of the two stuck plugs. One trick you can use to get oil to the spark plug threads (it will may go willingly past the sparkplug sealing rings) is to add synthetic oil to your gas tank at a 1:50 ratio with the fuel. This will let the oil coat the surfaces of the head lightly and some will work its way up the threads.

[kluzi]

thanks guys for all the advice.
Tomorrow will be the day where i will try again to remove the plugs. i had them "soaked" for a while now.
Once all of them are out i have someone perform a" Leakdown test".
Agin, thanks to all of you.
G

[djacksonsf]

Replying to this thread instead of creating a new one. I am looking for a good mechanic in the Bay Area as well - one who can look at the entire vehicle and help me understand what to worry about.

I've been taking my van to someone who is great with vintage BMWs, but doesn't seem to be taking a holistic approach to the Westfalia. Then, too, some decisions he's made (using oil that's not heavy enough) have caused issues that otherwise would not have occurred.

In this thread, I see Vivid, Jansen, Valley Wagon Works and a few others mentioned. Has anyone had particularly good experiences with any of these? I do not see Bus Lab mentioned, so would appreciate any feedback anyone has on them as well.

Thanks!
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+++++++++++++
'87 Westfalia
'88 BMW 535i
'83 BMW R100RS
'74 BMW 2002

[termuehlen]

[Igeo]

Since you are in Oakland, I'd suggest walking in to the Bus Lab and speak with them about what your concerns are. Then spend the time and go over to the one suggested that's in San Rafael. You'll get a sense of what the shops look like, and how willing they are to spend a few minutes. Then decide.
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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[kluzi]

a new issue on my westy.

My front blinkers ( both sides) stop blinking once i turn the headlights on. In all other applications they work. Emergency blinkers, front and rear blinkers all work. But once i turn on the headlights the front blinkers are constant yellow. Hmmm?? any ideas. thanks