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How Hot Can A VW Air Cooled Engine get and still survive?
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jbbugs
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've run oil temps of 240-250F for over 20+ hours at several races without issues. Brad Penn 20-50wt, Power pulley, 4000-5700 rpms.
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Little Harry
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think I may have found the problem that causing me some issues. Several people here on thesamba have told me I may be having issues with oil pressure. COLD idle the most I could get was around 40 psi. When warmed up I had the ever so importantly stressed 9 - 10 psi per 1,000 rpm. It didn't matter what oil I ran whether it was 5w-30, 10w-30, or 5w-50 the pressure never did change much. I was freaked out because I took my time building my little stocker-plus build (a year) and thought I must have done something wrong.

After having gone through and tried just about everything, I ordered a stock replacement set of springs/plungers for the oil system from aircooled.net. I put them in yesterday and WOW!! I have never had this kind of oil pressure. I am probably going to have to go down on the viscosity I am using. When it is first cranked up at COLD idle I have 50-60 psi of oil pressure. When cruising COLD I have 75 psi Shocked I was shocked. All this time I thought I screwed something when I built the engine. Now at hot cruise, depending on the actual temp the motor is running at it has around 45-50 psi of oil pressure.

I say all of this to say that if you are running an old set of springs and you NEED 20w-50 oil to have decent or marginal pressure then you may need to look into replacing the plungers/springs. I just hope I didn't ruin the brand new internals and bearings I put in having run with that kind of oil pressure since November of last year. Anyway, I know people appreciate resolved threads with solutions which is why I posted this for the next guy. Thanks to everybody for the advice.

On a side note, this morning the motor would barely even get over 180* also. So it looks like the springs may have also been causing my cooling issue as well.
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1973 VW Karmann Ghia - 1679cc, Kadrons, MoFoCo 041's, Tri-Mil Euro, Interstate Battery, and a little rust.

Zack1978 wrote:
From my perspective vintage VW's are beyond being used for daily driver purposes. It would be best to have your car parked in a garage, and kept away from the elements on a daily basis. Zack


Uhhh...yeah...I disagree
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Quokka42
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, VW actually recommended replacing the springs at rebuild or when they lost a significant amount of pressure. These engines were actually built in the days when you could order springs with a particular rate, whack a weight on them and have them compress to the appropriate length...

Don't worry about your oil temps - the base oil is good to about 500F, and the viscosity modifiers take some time to break down. It's hard to get the figures these days, so if you ever feel your temps are running a bit high, change your oil a bit earlier and sleep easy.

As for your sig - while it's true the best way to preserve a car is to prepare it and store it in a garage, cars are for driving and keeping cars just for show is for museums and pussies. I might take the old Jawa out for a spin tomorrow - 70 year old drum brakes are just another challenge!
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Volfandt
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good deal & good job, glad you found it.

I switched to syn blend 5w30 back towards the end of winter and so far I'm likeing it much better than the 10w30. My cold psi is around 50 - 55 and normal crusing psi is around 40. Idle is between 10 - 12 psi.
Prolonged 70 mph cruising on the interstate barely gets over 180 degrees

My guess is the thinner oil gets to the oil cooler sooner and more often and gives a more stable lower oil temp. At least when ambient temps are below 80.

I haven't hit the hot summer temps yet so the jury's still out on how it'll work out in the high 80's & 90's ambient temps. I may have to run the 10w30 for summer, we'll see.
Dave
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Little Harry
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quokka42 wrote:
Yeah, VW actually recommended replacing the springs at rebuild or when they lost a significant amount of pressure. These engines were actually built in the days when you could order springs with a particular rate, whack a weight on them and have them compress to the appropriate length...

Don't worry about your oil temps - the base oil is good to about 500F, and the viscosity modifiers take some time to break down. It's hard to get the figures these days, so if you ever feel your temps are running a bit high, change your oil a bit earlier and sleep easy.

As for your sig - while it's true the best way to preserve a car is to prepare it and store it in a garage, cars are for driving and keeping cars just for show is for museums and pussies. I might take the old Jawa out for a spin tomorrow - 70 year old drum brakes are just another challenge!


Nice to hear that i am not the only one that thinks it is stupid to have a car that you can't drive.
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1973 VW Karmann Ghia - 1679cc, Kadrons, MoFoCo 041's, Tri-Mil Euro, Interstate Battery, and a little rust.

Zack1978 wrote:
From my perspective vintage VW's are beyond being used for daily driver purposes. It would be best to have your car parked in a garage, and kept away from the elements on a daily basis. Zack


Uhhh...yeah...I disagree
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Little Harry
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volfandt wrote:
Good deal & good job, glad you found it.

I switched to syn blend 5w30 back towards the end of winter and so far I'm likeing it much better than the 10w30. My cold psi is around 50 - 55 and normal crusing psi is around 40. Idle is between 10 - 12 psi.
Prolonged 70 mph cruising on the interstate barely gets over 180 degrees

My guess is the thinner oil gets to the oil cooler sooner and more often and gives a more stable lower oil temp. At least when ambient temps are below 80.

I haven't hit the hot summer temps yet so the jury's still out on how it'll work out in the high 80's & 90's ambient temps. I may have to run the 10w30 for summer, we'll see.
Dave

Thanks for the kudos. I am sure i will now have to experiment with oils as well.
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1973 VW Karmann Ghia - 1679cc, Kadrons, MoFoCo 041's, Tri-Mil Euro, Interstate Battery, and a little rust.

Zack1978 wrote:
From my perspective vintage VW's are beyond being used for daily driver purposes. It would be best to have your car parked in a garage, and kept away from the elements on a daily basis. Zack


Uhhh...yeah...I disagree
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txoval
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, in traffic or when I'm riding hard it will get up to 220...but comes down quickly

Little Harry wrote:
Thanks txoval. The Woodlands is not far at all from where I live. Did they still run that temp this time of year.
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little Harry,

now that you got that part figured out (the REAL problem), you have to start playing with viscosity again. Try your 10-30 next change and see how it works out.

Do you know what size pump you have?

If your relief springs were soft, the cooler was being bypassed often, which is why the elevated oil temps (no oil through the cooler!). Please report back with oil temps on another cruise now that you have the problem figured out.
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Sniperx
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just leaned out my target AFR by 2%, from 14.3 to 14.5, and saw my CHT go up 25 degrees. I now hit 250 on the street and 300 on the highway. My heads also get up to 200 in 1/4 mile instead of 2 miles. My computer is still learning its new AFR so I won't be going farther until that settles down a little. I wish I could get motivated to finish wiring my EGT gauge....
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember, temps will continue to climb until you hit 14.7:1, then they will start to cool off again on the other side of the A/F curve.

If you get into the 15.5-16:1 range it will be cooler than where you are now.
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Little Harry
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Little Harry,

now that you got that part figured out (the REAL problem), you have to start playing with viscosity again. Try your 10-30 next change and see how it works out.

Do you know what size pump you have?

If your relief springs were soft, the cooler was being bypassed often, which is why the elevated oil temps (no oil through the cooler!). Please report back with oil temps on another cruise now that you have the problem figured out.


The pump I have is a schadek 26mm. The case is full flowed. The last three times I drove the car it was in the mid nineties outside. Everytime the oil temp reaches 210* and stays there. This is while driving at 60mph for twenty miles. The pressure at that temp is around 37psi at 3000 rpm.
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1973 VW Karmann Ghia - 1679cc, Kadrons, MoFoCo 041's, Tri-Mil Euro, Interstate Battery, and a little rust.

Zack1978 wrote:
From my perspective vintage VW's are beyond being used for daily driver purposes. It would be best to have your car parked in a garage, and kept away from the elements on a daily basis. Zack


Uhhh...yeah...I disagree
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Sniperx
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLASPHEMY!

How DARE you say leaner makes it cooler....!

Looks like someone has been reading up on lean of peak tuning.

You are absolutely correct. Temps peak at about 15.1 and drop off very quickly. Unfortunately you can't tune lean of peak without an EGT due to cooling differences between charts and what we are operating...but could be if you trend it out. General rule is 40% temp decrease past peak during cruise.

My tuner said he had my old dells running at 15.5 at cruise. Which is possibly true.
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't consider oil temps "HOT" until 235F.

You can easily tune without the EGT. The trends are well documented. Airplanes do it that way because that's the way they've always done it. But we can achieve the same results via A/F.
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Steve Arndt
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys know that E10 fuel (10% ethanol) mix stoich is 14.1:1 not 14.7:1, right?

Most people here are running so rich that it doesn't make a difference anyway Smile
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always tune off of Lambda to prevent that fuel change BS. But really it doesn't matter.

If you use a gauge set to display "A/F" for "gasoline", and run alcohol in it, the A/F reading will still work, since it assumes 14.7:1 is stoic. It basically translates Lambda to "A/F" depending on what fuel you have set the gauge to. You can run alcohol, and tune the same as gasoline. Yes it's true you are not at 14.7:1, but if you are at 12:1 you know you are rich, even though you are really at 6:1. Knowing if you are rich or lean is what matters.

And it is true that most guys are too rich and don't even realize it.
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Sniperx
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats very interesting. I never considered the stoich point of the mickey mouse fuel we call gasoline.

I wonder how my setup interprets it. My laptop displays an AF reading with no inputs for fuel type. It shouldn't matter what fuel you are running...the O2 sensor just knows how much air is blowing past it. Now if you are trying to go stoich through math, yes fuel type is important.

My goals are MPG, longevity, some power, getting temps up.

AF for me is not a tuning goal, but rather a reference point for the ECU to use. Once I find the pulsewidth that gets the temps I want...I'll check the AFR and change my targets to that AFR and let the ECU fill in the blanks. Now if my ECU would detect EGT...then you could just say I want "X" exhaust temperature and REALLY let the ECU take over. Then AFR just becomes a talking point.
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright...finally got my EGT wiring strung. Its interesting watching a gasoline gauge vs diesel. I would have thought the acted the same....the gas EGT seems to be RPM based while dise is load based. I lugged it way down in4 4th with no real increase, but running in 3rd for a longer period saw a pretty high increase.

So my numbers are:
14.5 AFR

Idle: 1100f
Cruise/Peak: 1400f (same for highway or street interstingly enough)

Trying to tune lean of peak could result in cooked heads if you are using only a CHT gauge. They don't get you the info fast enough and they are affected by coolant (air) and may not be 100% reflecting the current EGT.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This graph illustrates what I'm talking about. Don't look too hard it may confuse some people...just look at the shapes and points. CHT levels and drops while EGT climbs and peaks after CHT drops. You may think you're running cool on CHT, but in reality its really hot in there.
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Streetwise VWs
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Picked up my brand new 1776 today driving down the freeway i noticed the following at 100km (65mph) the oil temp rose too 115C (240F) which is a little high considering today was only 24c degrees (75F). driving locally it sat on around 100C (212F). Oil pressure was around 40psi and head temp around 350F.

I have the original deck lid with no vents but had a stand off at the bottom of the lid.

Considering Sydney is in winter and our summer temps regularly go for 40C or (110F) not that i will be driving in the heat, should i consider either or both options

1. New deck lid with 4 vents
2. External oil cooler, engine has external oil filter installed

thanks for the advice
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Little Harry
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The decklid with vents would be a good start IMHO. I guess you could try running a little thinner oil. What are you currently running (oil)? My engine has been running right at 230* here lately but everyday we have been around 108*F. As soon as it cools down like on my way to/from work at 4:00 a.m. the engine cools normally. I personally wouldn't run the external cooler unless I had to, that's just me though.
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1973 VW Karmann Ghia - 1679cc, Kadrons, MoFoCo 041's, Tri-Mil Euro, Interstate Battery, and a little rust.

Zack1978 wrote:
From my perspective vintage VW's are beyond being used for daily driver purposes. It would be best to have your car parked in a garage, and kept away from the elements on a daily basis. Zack


Uhhh...yeah...I disagree
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aryue
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Streetwise VWs wrote:
Picked up my brand new 1776 today driving down the freeway i noticed the following at 100km (65mph) the oil temp rose too 115C (240F) which is a little high considering today was only 24c degrees (75F). driving locally it sat on around 100C (212F). Oil pressure was around 40psi and head temp around 350F.



A new engine will heat up as parts wear in. Assuming all the engine tin is in place - three items to check.

* Valves are still adjusted properly
* Ignition timing @ 3500 rpm, mechanical adv is around 29 to 30 BTDC
* Main jet on the carb is right for the 1776 build and no vacuum leaks. It may be running lean.

- Andrew in Austin, TX -
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