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1.9TD AAZ Engine Rebuild
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johnnygreenham
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: 1.9TD AAZ Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

Hi all,

So this is my second topic. Thanks everyone for help with my first post. I guess this will be half help questions and half information for the archives. so lets get started.

Quick recap, this van is new to me. 1982 Diesel westy with a 1.9TD engine that was said to be terminally damaged (never opened, just what the garage said). I'm pressuming it's an AAZ as even VW couldn't tell me with the half dozen codes I gave them. I pulled the engine out and with friends, carried it into the spare room. This is where I'm hoping resurrect this engine, seeing as I couldn't find one for sale before I bought the van, I figure its worth the money and a go as long as I succeed.

I did not have the manual for this engine at the time and so made a few mistakes already. Seems like before I took the engine out I should have lined up TDC from the flywheel and bellhousing. I didn't, so lets work with my faults and keep going. Things that I have noticed that I think are valuable pieces of information. When pulling engine, nearly all bolts came out with great ease. I mean everyone one of them. I tried to drain the engine oil whilst it was still mounted in the vehicle. Nothing came out of the bottom end sump plug. When I had the engine on the stand, I got about 2 1/2 quarts out of the same plug. I can't explian that one but looking where the oil pick up is I'm amazed it could even touch oil. maybe someone can shed some light on why this was like it was? Didn'tseem a lot of oil to me even with all the leaks I've mopped up.

I marked up all the timing pulleys when the second cam from the pulley side was closing the valve. This is my second mistake as tiredness made me believe that this was TDC on 1st cylinder. It was infact 180 deg out and first cyclinder in Bottom Dead Center. I removed the belt and the Cam pulley only to find it not keyed like I presumed due to no marks on the CAM pulley. Thats when I go Bently Manual for a jetta.

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I'm sure you guys can help me out when I come to time this thing if we get that far.

The cam shaft looks great with barely any wear marks. The head on the other hand is not so great. I think it may be a gonna but it's worth asking you guys. It never had a compression test done, or leak down by me as it sounded like I would do more damage tring to start this thing up again after the years it was just sitting there so it would be better to just rip into it, mic everthing and go from there.

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I have cracks like this between every set of valves Sad Not sure how far they go yet

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When I took the sump off, this is what i found in the bottom

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Along with a teaspoon full of fine metal powder. Not sure exactly what the metals is from, whether its from this time or previous damage which wasn't cleaned up.

All sounds doom and gloom right? Well I try and stay on the positive side and I believe that this engine still may have life in it. I have the gut feeling that this engine has just had a rebuilt very recently and that maybe, just maybe the metal was from then. The engine does turn over by hand although I haven't gone a full rotation yet as I'm still debating how much trouble I'm going to create when timing and having no marks in correllation to the injection pump (not moved anything there yet).

You tell me? These pistons look almost new to me. According to the book they are at 2nd Oversized so basically maxed out bore.

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All bores apear to look like this but I can't be sure there is NO damage until I take my Pistons out. Freshly Honed? looks like it to me

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So my next step is to remove the crank/pistons and shells. Mic and measure the bores and get a feeling if the bottom end is good to go or if we need to do work.

Then I guess I need to remove the valves and see if cracks are the end of this engine. Check for warp and make a call if its a new head or no.

PLEASE chip in your knowlege, ideas and steps that I need to do so not to cause myself anymore headaches than I need be. I work 7 days a week so I appriciate your help and encouragement to keep going with this. I'm not one to have this engine lying around my apartment for months for progess will be quick. I have so many pictures of nearly everything to do with the internals and this build so if you want more picture on certain components let me know.

Kind Regards
Johnny
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that's both good and bad news. Those bores do look quite nice with little no ridge at the top. The pistons are 1st overbore, 2nd is 1mm over. Stock is 79.50mm. Even though they look good, personally, given the unknown nature of the engine and especially with gunk that like in the sump, I'd strip it right down and thoroughly clean all oil passages and inspect each bearing and moving component.

The cylinder head has seen better days. Cracks between the valves is pretty typical AAZ. As long as they're not into the valve seat area- hard to tell from the pic, then they're okay to run. That cracked pre-cup is another story though.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually 1st overbore is 0.25mm over but the pistons are unobtanium and presumably only used in factory rebuilds. Second overbore is 0.5mm and third is 1.00mm.

Those cylinders look brand spankin' new. Like not even broken in.

The cracks between the valves are of no concern. The cracks in the pre-chamber inserts are a BIG concern, tho. They can grow very quickly and once the pre-cup splits the head and piston will be destroyed. Sometimes even the block will get gouged in the process. I'm not sure of a source for AAZ pre-chambers. You might try Frank Irving. If anyone else has a source please let me know.

I wouldn't take apart the bottom end looking like that unless you suspect that the builder was sketchy. I would address the head, reinstall and run it.

Give a picture of the oil pump pickup tube. I would like to make sure it's the right one.

Timing it all will be no big deal, so rest easy on that. Just leave the cam out of the head until the engine is installed (or until a bell housing is on it) and then you spin the crank to TDC for #1 (and #4) and then install the cam at TDC for #1. Nothing more to it.

Be sure to read up on measuring piston protrusion in order to get the correct head gasket.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need this http://altrom.com/cgi-bin/altapp.sh?&PGM=altap...mp;CD=1150
They're around 45$ list in Canada . They're made by AMC (company that builds the WBC heads) . I've never installed a set , I imagine you plane the head once they're in [/quote]
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That piece of metal your holding in the fourth pic looks like bottom end bearing material to me. I'd flip her over and pull all the bearings main and rod and inspect then re-torque the caps. I mean you've got it on a stand right? I think a visual inspection of wear parts is in order. I wouldn't mic anything unless you've got a bad bearing.
You need to keep the everthing in order though and return to their respective homes. I usually unbolt/ pull parts one at a time then cut or slit holes in a sheet of cardboard push them through and use the cardboard as a holding fixture for the parts as they come off. Then you can label the cardboard w/a marker.

Edit: oh and I almost forgot, you can "roll out" the bearing halfs on the "bottom", non cap side. With a piece of thin flexible non marring material, you just take the cap off and push on the end without the retainer notch, a piece of thin plastic or alu works well.
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Last edited by kgold708 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe they reversed the main bearing shells in their saddles, which pretty much starves things
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers for all the responses. Just wrote a huge post and must have only previewed it and not posted it..........grrrrr

I sometimes struggle with the equivalent terms and names. Are the pre cups the exit to the Pre ignition chamber and flute?????? I remember something like this with my parents diesel canal boat engine in England.
So it looks like I can remove them and press in new ones right? That would be great news. Very Happy

All four cups are cracked.
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here is the pic up in the oil pan. Not the greatest picture I have saved but I'm struggling to see how with a 50 deg engine angle, the oil would be high enough to submerge the pickup? I will have to take some measurements.


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I'm not sure what to do about the crank and bearings. A big part of me thinks that seeing as i'm this far it wouldn't be too much more to take everthing apart and put it back myself. At least then I know it's all good rather than presuming its good. I have no idea who the builder was or who did the work so I guess it would be taking a chance if they did it right or not. All I know is that the engine doesn't run and the garage sold me the van as is with the motor "blown".
Quote:
I wouldn't take apart the bottom end looking like that unless you suspect that the builder was sketchy. I would address the head, reinstall and run it.

This isn't a negative question but I'm curious why do you think this? It wouldn't take me too long to strip it down and rebuild.
Would be nice to know if all that metal was a current problem or past problem.

Thanks for all your input. Nothing you guys say is ever wrong to me, even if I'm inclined not to agree, I like to question what I know and learn. Cheers


Last edited by johnnygreenham on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some pictures of what i found in the bottom of the sump and the reason why I think I have to take the bottom end apart.

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A small part of me thinks that if it was caused by a problem before, then it was machines and rebuild with some new parts........why didn't they clean the sump out.........kind of makes me dubious about their work as well
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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This looks like piston contact to me... Defined ridge in the pre-cup, and it looks like they all started to crack at the same place, where the piston edge is. Question
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Syncroincity. Thanks for the help you gave me last time on identifying this engine. Hoping I can save it with some new parts. How's your rebuild doing? I got some good info on your rebuild post. Curious about the ignition pump timing. How was it?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnygreenham wrote:
Hi Syncroincity. Thanks for the help you gave me last time on identifying this engine. Hoping I can save it with some new parts. How's your rebuild doing? I got some good info on your rebuild post. Curious about the ignition pump timing. How was it?


She's on winter hiatus right now... Wink The timing was too advanced, which made the engine very loud & clacking. I backed it off to where the noise was acceptable, only to find now that it didn't want to start when cold. The engine had come with a 1-notch head gasket, but I installed a thicker 2-notch gasket... and it is too much, they are sensitive.
AutohausAZ is my go-to for most of the rebuild supplies, check out their website.

Those cups are in bad shape... replace them or find a replacement head... that impact crater from the pistons is pretty deep. Planing the head on VWs has a mixed history of success.
I wonder if maybe you completely lost a few bearings and that allowed enough play to let the piston hit the head...
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johnnygreenham
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll look at their site for sure. I still need to do a full inspection on the head and make a decision.

Quote:
Those cups are in bad shape... replace them or find a replacement head... that impact crater from the pistons is pretty deep. Planing the head on VWs has a mixed history of success


If it isn't worth me saving it, what are my options? Do i have to try and find a used 1.9 head or will the 1.6td head fit? If the block and bottom end all turn out to be ok and rebuilt, maybe I can put that money to a new 1.9 head if they still make them?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theres a good used head on Ebay right now for $200 + shipping

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Volkswagen-Cylinder-H...mp;vxp=mtr
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that ridge in the precup may just be from the metal ring of the head gasket.

Prechamber inserts are available for the 1.9. They should be a press fit into the head and should remain proud of the gasket surface by 0.002-0.003".

That's a lot of metal you found. I would want to find out where that came from.

That is the correct oil pump pickup tube.

New authentic German heads are available complete for about $800.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with kgold708. That thin piece of metal looks like a main bearing shell from a connecting rod. What appear to be the goldish flecks of metal in the other pics could be from the crankshaft journals. As said in earlier post this could be why your pistons seem to have collided with your head, or maybe they installed the wrong head gasket. Don't throw away the old gasket.

Check the piston height at the top of their stroke and make sure they got the right head gasket first. Maybe you'll get lucky and they put in one too thin.

Even so,I'd pull the main bearing caps and inspect before I bought a new head.
Maybe they just didn't clean it out well, but it would be a major bummer to buy a new head and put the engine back together and back in the van and have loose pistons demo your new head, especially since you're right there anyway.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This looks like piston contact to me... Defined ridge in the pre-cup, and it looks like they all started to crack at the same place, where the piston edge is.


So a few of you who thought the piston was making contact with the head were spot on. I got home from my shift and couldn't wind down so I started to clean the head to see what condition it was in and taking in all you have said.

Then I clean up the second cylinder to reveal this.........


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Look familiar?????????

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I actually forgot but when we were loading up the van, I asked one of the young lads you worked there if he could remember what was wrong with it. He said that he remembers stating the van with his work colleague. It sounded like it was going to explode, so they turned it off and diagnosed the solution as a new engine was required. I can only imagine the knocking/banging it was making if the piston was hitting the cylinder head. Now to find out why it was going higher than all the other pistons. Think it may be time to take the crank out and pistons.

But for now it's almost 1:30am and looks like a snow storm it about to hit Colorado so time to get some sleep and rip some turns on the mountain tomorrow morning before work.

Thank you all again for your input!!!!!! Much appreciated and I'll try and keep posting up what i find, pictures and maybe a bit of knowledge to help someone out as long as people are interested.

Johnny
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll bet it started on the first crank! Shocked Don't rush, just turn the engine upside down, pull the main bearing caps, then push the other half of the bearing out from under the crank. Then replace and check the rods next. This is just an inspection at this point. Those bores look new, no reason to break a piston ring and throw good parts after bad.Don't order any parts until you check the bottom end bearings and piston protrusion. Unless you find a deal on a used head, that head is gonna need some work!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy, banging the pistons directly into the head certainly would make on cringe! I think it would be wise to closely inspect the connecting rods. It's possible they got tweaked. You're right "there". Tear that engine down. No point in putting new/replacement parts on until you've inspected each part especially with that grime in the sump. I really hate redoing something because it was rushed through.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Afternoon,

So I have news, not good, but at least I know whats wrong.
I flipped up the engine on the stand and went straight to the second cylinder. Instantly saw the connecting rod shell to be a different color than the rest. I placed my fingers on it and moved it a fraction. I felt the bolts and they just started to unscrew. I was thinking.....oh s*#t. The two bolts hadn't been marked white to indicate they were torqued up. They had been forgot. This engine builder slipped up big style. I bet it's not done more than 10 clicks on the rebuild. I guess all I have to do now is post the pictures up. Maybe the crank will polish up. It looks like the shell metal bonded to the crank so it hard to say if the crank has been worn, gauged or destroyed?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What do you all think. Take the crank out and see if it will polish up, maybe needs to be reground? I'm pretty happy I didn't ry and start the engine when I first got it. Hoping its still savable Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, this kinda malfeasance really chaps my unmentionables. I hope the "builder" didn't actually receive a wage for this unconscionable clusterfrock of a job
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