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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Also, it would be foolishness to say that the WB museum doesn't have info that's not 100% accurate. I'm looking at your birth certificate and I see one glaring impossibility already... does anyone else see it?
It's more egregious on the Zertifikat for my 17. April 1963 car. Also, mine says it was built and left the factory same day... impossible.
These forms are nice guidelines, but don't forget that the cars in the WOB museum aren't always entirely 100% correct, either. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
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MonT3 Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2012 Posts: 1988 Location: South Dakota
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
Hmmm, I thought Red/ White sidemarkers were Euro, and Amber was Italy Only, wired as a turn signal....
Now, I can tell you definitively that M268 is middle side hinged window, and I have a hypothesis in regards to M445... it has appeared as "unidentified" on every "birth certificate" I've seen of cars that had the '1500' badge substituted for 'VARIANT', so I'm going to say that this is M445 until we find out differently.
Everett, you might be able to pipe up on this one and see if your Vari Zertifikat says the same thing. |
Tram, Thanks for the info on M268. I'm understanding this code to be side pop-outs which it has? Interesting hypothesis on the badge. Would the back posts for both badges be the same to facilitate such a swap when these cars were being built for export? _________________ MonT3
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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MonT3 wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
Hmmm, I thought Red/ White sidemarkers were Euro, and Amber was Italy Only, wired as a turn signal....
Now, I can tell you definitively that M268 is middle side hinged window, and I have a hypothesis in regards to M445... it has appeared as "unidentified" on every "birth certificate" I've seen of cars that had the '1500' badge substituted for 'VARIANT', so I'm going to say that this is M445 until we find out differently.
Everett, you might be able to pipe up on this one and see if your Vari Zertifikat says the same thing. |
Tram, Thanks for the info on M268. I'm understanding this code to be side pop-outs which it has? Interesting hypothesis on the badge. Would the back posts for both badges be the same to facilitate such a swap when these cars were being built for export? |
Right- pop outs, but specifically on the middle windows, which the other three Type 3 models don't share.
And yes- '1500' and 'VARIANT' badges were interchangeable in the same mounting holes. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
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MonT3 Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2012 Posts: 1988 Location: South Dakota
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
MonT3 wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
Hmmm, I thought Red/ White sidemarkers were Euro, and Amber was Italy Only, wired as a turn signal....
Now, I can tell you definitively that M268 is middle side hinged window, and I have a hypothesis in regards to M445... it has appeared as "unidentified" on every "birth certificate" I've seen of cars that had the '1500' badge substituted for 'VARIANT', so I'm going to say that this is M445 until we find out differently.
Everett, you might be able to pipe up on this one and see if your Vari Zertifikat says the same thing. |
Tram, Thanks for the info on M268. I'm understanding this code to be side pop-outs which it has? Interesting hypothesis on the badge. Would the back posts for both badges be the same to facilitate such a swap when these cars were being built for export? |
Right- pop outs, but specifically on the middle windows, which the other three Type 3 models don't share.
And yes- '1500' and 'VARIANT' badges were interchangeable in the same mounting holes. |
I guess I can try to remove the paint in that area and see if there would be markings on the OG paint that would let us know if the 1500 badge is OG or if the Variant was. Maybe EverettB can shed some more light on this with info from his B-Cert. Thanks again Tram. _________________ MonT3
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69733 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
Hmmm, I thought Red/ White sidemarkers were Euro, and Amber was Italy Only, wired as a turn signal....
Now, I can tell you definitively that M268 is middle side hinged window, and I have a hypothesis in regards to M445... it has appeared as "unidentified" on every "birth certificate" I've seen of cars that had the '1500' badge substituted for 'VARIANT', so I'm going to say that this is M445 until we find out differently.
Everett, you might be able to pipe up on this one and see if your Vari Zertifikat says the same thing. |
My car also has 268:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/scrapbook/63variant/letter.jpg
Orange side markers as turn signals is also Canada - my car has this.
M445 says Canada Equipment on my certificate above.
If his car is German, it should say Variant AFAIK _________________ How to Post Photos
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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EverettB wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
Hmmm, I thought Red/ White sidemarkers were Euro, and Amber was Italy Only, wired as a turn signal....
Now, I can tell you definitively that M268 is middle side hinged window, and I have a hypothesis in regards to M445... it has appeared as "unidentified" on every "birth certificate" I've seen of cars that had the '1500' badge substituted for 'VARIANT', so I'm going to say that this is M445 until we find out differently.
Everett, you might be able to pipe up on this one and see if your Vari Zertifikat says the same thing. |
My car also has 268:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/scrapbook/63variant/letter.jpg
Orange side markers as turn signals is also Canada - my car has this.
M445 says Canada Equipment on my certificate above.
If his car is German, it should say Variant AFAIK |
You're right- my Canadian 1500 has the yellow sides also. So, the M445 "Canada Equipment" code likely was not just the '1500' badge, but that badge plus yellow side signals, plus red flat tail lenses, plus MPH speedo.
Monte, how does that info go as far as matching your car?
I'm not sure if a gas heater would be included in that. I'm thinking that would be its own M code like the later cars.
Incidentally, my Canadian issue car shows the country of destination as Mahag, Munich, Germany, so the Germany destination likely doesn't mean much in reality. Remember, a lot of these cars were Tourist Delivery.
And- to clear up my statement about yellow side markers as turn signals- AFAIK the Italian market was the only Euro market to mandate these. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
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MonT3 Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2012 Posts: 1988 Location: South Dakota
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Wow, this is getting interesting. As I read the newly posted comments, as you mentioned, maybe this car could have been a tourist pickup or a shipped car from a GI as there is military within 100 miles. To answer your question on matching items, when I happened on the car, it had yellow markers, 1500 badge but the taillights I can't validate. It had one of the early large style all red tail light (not flat). I presumed after reading this the PO may have swapped them out after not being able to come across some. That was part of the reason I questioned the markings on the tail light assembly having both 6v and 12v markings on them. I didn't think it was OG equipment. As for the speedo, It does have an MPH speedo but it doesn't match the other gauges as the needle isn't red so I say it was possibly swapped from a KPH later on, maybe when they hit the US or Canada. Maybe it was a requirement when it shipped(pure speculation at this point). The heater is a stock setup with the knob on the tunnel. Nothing in the trunk or signs there are heater holes in the trunk.
What about those crazy over-the-chest seatbelts it has. Could that have been designated with an M-Code? _________________ MonT3
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69733 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:04 am Post subject: |
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If it has a speedometer that is not a red needle then yes, it may have been replaced when brought into the USA.
I have owned another car where this was done - the speedometer had a later date too.
My '63 has a heater but I believe it was just dealer installed.
It is not an Eberspacher.
I don't think the Canadian Type 3s had a "factory" heater until post-1963. _________________ How to Post Photos
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Mine has the orange- needle speedo in MPH- and the dates on all the instruments match the car. Note that Canada didn't use metric measurements until the 1970s- Prior to that their speeds were measured in MPH and their capacities in Imperial.
The "bigger" tail lenses were used on 1964- on S cars.
As to the "crazy" seat belts, the chest- only belts were pretty standard in the rest of the Western world beginning in about 1962 until the advent of 3 point belts. They're actually really safe, as demonstrated in Mercedes' pioneer crash tests of the late 1950s when they were developing the W110/ 111/112 line of cars, aka "Heckflosse", or "Fintails". These were the first crash- tested "safety" cars, and the shoulder/ chest belts were developed as a result of those pioneering crash test observations. USA, as usual, had better ideas, and didn't like the Euro belts, preferring to stick with lap belts that did nothing to prevent the driver from flexing forward and burying his face in the steering wheel.
Our Samba chart says "M259" is for added lap belts, but my Zertifikat says it's simply for "seatbelt mounting points" and mine has the chest- only belt, with no provision for laps. My guess would be that the mounting points probably became standard right in the April/ May 1963 period, and this may be why yours doesn't have the M259 code noted. Either that, or these Zertifikaten are way more slovenly than we know! _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
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bobnorman Samba Newfoundlander
Joined: August 09, 2010 Posts: 1389 Location: Newfoundland
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
Rear seat material is the original.
Euro cars got a two point shoulder belt with no lap belt, and I think those were acceptable in Canada also. USA mandated lap belts only until 1968- then 3 point shoulder/lap belts with high back seats. |
My Canadian '64 has the Chest-only belts as well. |
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MonT3 Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2012 Posts: 1988 Location: South Dakota
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, That's a lot of good info and a cool history lesson on the. I intend on running yellow markers along with the yellow/red taillights and 1500 marker. If I get lucky enough to come across a speedo, I may run that as well but I'm going to check the date on it when I get the chance. Still have a lot to learn on the car. Thanks for the great info guys. _________________ MonT3
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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MonT3 wrote: |
Wow, That's a lot of good info and a cool history lesson on the. I intend on running yellow markers along with the yellow/red taillights and 1500 marker. If I get lucky enough to come across a speedo, I may run that as well but I'm going to check the date on it when I get the chance. Still have a lot to learn on the car. Thanks for the great info guys. |
Actually, if you want to be 100% accurate in your Canadian package car, you should run the flat all- red lenses.
Email this guy and find out what the date code is on this speedo:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1352325 _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
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MonT3 Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2012 Posts: 1988 Location: South Dakota
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
MonT3 wrote: |
Wow, That's a lot of good info and a cool history lesson on the. I intend on running yellow markers along with the yellow/red taillights and 1500 marker. If I get lucky enough to come across a speedo, I may run that as well but I'm going to check the date on it when I get the chance. Still have a lot to learn on the car. Thanks for the great info guys. |
Actually, if you want to be 100% accurate in your Canadian package car, you should run the flat all- red lenses.
Email this guy and find out what the date code is on this speedo:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1352325 |
I can do that. Also sent a PM on the speedo. Thanks. _________________ MonT3
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ibjack Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2002 Posts: 2105 Location: Imperial Beach CA
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
You're right- my Canadian 1500 has the yellow sides also. So, the M445 "Canada Equipment" code likely was not just the '1500' badge, but that badge plus yellow side signals, plus red flat tail lenses, plus MPH speedo.
Monte, how does that info go as far as matching your car?
I'm not sure if a gas heater would be included in that. I'm thinking that would be its own M code like the later cars.
Incidentally, my Canadian issue car shows the country of destination as Mahag, Munich, Germany, so the Germany destination likely doesn't mean much in reality. Remember, a lot of these cars were Tourist Delivery.
And- to clear up my statement about yellow side markers as turn signals- AFAIK the Italian market was the only Euro market to mandate these. |
I thought Canadian cars came without sidemarkers. My '65 is from there and has none? _________________ '68 Lotus White T34 automatic sunroof
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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ibjack wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
You're right- my Canadian 1500 has the yellow sides also. So, the M445 "Canada Equipment" code likely was not just the '1500' badge, but that badge plus yellow side signals, plus red flat tail lenses, plus MPH speedo.
Monte, how does that info go as far as matching your car?
I'm not sure if a gas heater would be included in that. I'm thinking that would be its own M code like the later cars.
Incidentally, my Canadian issue car shows the country of destination as Mahag, Munich, Germany, so the Germany destination likely doesn't mean much in reality. Remember, a lot of these cars were Tourist Delivery.
And- to clear up my statement about yellow side markers as turn signals- AFAIK the Italian market was the only Euro market to mandate these. |
I thought Canadian cars came without sidemarkers. My '65 is from there and has none? |
We're guessing here on the 445 option. So far we have at least three cars with M445 and they all have the yellow side markers.
They're all '63s, too, though. I think things may have changed on the side markers in Canada sometime between '63 and '65, as my '66 Canadian delivery Type 34 had no markers either, and Karmann Ghia badges blanking off the side marker holes. There are lots of later Canadian 34s out there like that. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
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MonT3 Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2012 Posts: 1988 Location: South Dakota
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
ibjack wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
You're right- my Canadian 1500 has the yellow sides also. So, the M445 "Canada Equipment" code likely was not just the '1500' badge, but that badge plus yellow side signals, plus red flat tail lenses, plus MPH speedo.
Monte, how does that info go as far as matching your car?
I'm not sure if a gas heater would be included in that. I'm thinking that would be its own M code like the later cars.
Incidentally, my Canadian issue car shows the country of destination as Mahag, Munich, Germany, so the Germany destination likely doesn't mean much in reality. Remember, a lot of these cars were Tourist Delivery.
And- to clear up my statement about yellow side markers as turn signals- AFAIK the Italian market was the only Euro market to mandate these. |
I thought Canadian cars came without sidemarkers. My '65 is from there and has none? |
We're guessing here on the 445 option. So far we have at least three cars with M445 and they all have the yellow side markers.
They're all '63s, too, though. I think things may have changed on the side markers in Canada sometime between '63 and '65, as my '66 Canadian delivery Type 34 had no markers either, and Karmann Ghia badges blanking off the side marker holes. There are lots of later Canadian 34s out there like that. |
Interesting how different the cars are by the little changes in options. _________________ MonT3
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
As to the "crazy" seat belts, the chest- only belts were pretty standard in the rest of the Western world beginning in about 1962 until the advent of 3 point belts. They're actually really safe, as demonstrated in Mercedes' pioneer crash tests of the late 1950s when they were developing the W110/ 111/112 line of cars, aka "Heckflosse", or "Fintails". These were the first crash- tested "safety" cars, and the shoulder/ chest belts were developed as a result of those pioneering crash test observations. USA, as usual, had better ideas, and didn't like the Euro belts, preferring to stick with lap belts that did nothing to prevent the driver from flexing forward and burying his face in the steering wheel. |
Another real issue with lap only belts: Many people were either paralyzed or perished in low speed collisions due to internal injuries inflicted upon the wearer-which is why they were changed to 3 point belts (finally). I had a friend in high school who died sitting in the back seat of a car that hit a tree at 25MPH-wearing a "lap only" belt that caused 'a total transection of the spinal cord'. Guy sitting next to him not wearing a seat belt had a broken nose from hitting the B pillar with his face. |
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bobnorman Samba Newfoundlander
Joined: August 09, 2010 Posts: 1389 Location: Newfoundland
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
ibjack wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
You're right- my Canadian 1500 has the yellow sides also. So, the M445 "Canada Equipment" code likely was not just the '1500' badge, but that badge plus yellow side signals, plus red flat tail lenses, plus MPH speedo.
Monte, how does that info go as far as matching your car?
I'm not sure if a gas heater would be included in that. I'm thinking that would be its own M code like the later cars.
Incidentally, my Canadian issue car shows the country of destination as Mahag, Munich, Germany, so the Germany destination likely doesn't mean much in reality. Remember, a lot of these cars were Tourist Delivery.
And- to clear up my statement about yellow side markers as turn signals- AFAIK the Italian market was the only Euro market to mandate these. |
I thought Canadian cars came without sidemarkers. My '65 is from there and has none? |
We're guessing here on the 445 option. So far we have at least three cars with M445 and they all have the yellow side markers.
They're all '63s, too, though. I think things may have changed on the side markers in Canada sometime between '63 and '65, as my '66 Canadian delivery Type 34 had no markers either, and Karmann Ghia badges blanking off the side marker holes. There are lots of later Canadian 34s out there like that. |
My 64 has no side markers, no holes for any either. I never was clear if that was a Canadian thing, or if some had them and some didn't. |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69733 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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ibjack wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
You're right- my Canadian 1500 has the yellow sides also. So, the M445 "Canada Equipment" code likely was not just the '1500' badge, but that badge plus yellow side signals, plus red flat tail lenses, plus MPH speedo.
Monte, how does that info go as far as matching your car?
I'm not sure if a gas heater would be included in that. I'm thinking that would be its own M code like the later cars.
Incidentally, my Canadian issue car shows the country of destination as Mahag, Munich, Germany, so the Germany destination likely doesn't mean much in reality. Remember, a lot of these cars were Tourist Delivery.
And- to clear up my statement about yellow side markers as turn signals- AFAIK the Italian market was the only Euro market to mandate these. |
I thought Canadian cars came without sidemarkers. My '65 is from there and has none? |
I think this changed in 1964 or 1965.
I did notice both the 64 and 65 Canadian brochures on the site show side markers though. _________________ How to Post Photos
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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EverettB wrote: |
ibjack wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
You're right- my Canadian 1500 has the yellow sides also. So, the M445 "Canada Equipment" code likely was not just the '1500' badge, but that badge plus yellow side signals, plus red flat tail lenses, plus MPH speedo.
Monte, how does that info go as far as matching your car?
I'm not sure if a gas heater would be included in that. I'm thinking that would be its own M code like the later cars.
Incidentally, my Canadian issue car shows the country of destination as Mahag, Munich, Germany, so the Germany destination likely doesn't mean much in reality. Remember, a lot of these cars were Tourist Delivery.
And- to clear up my statement about yellow side markers as turn signals- AFAIK the Italian market was the only Euro market to mandate these. |
I thought Canadian cars came without sidemarkers. My '65 is from there and has none? |
I think this changed in 1964 or 1965.
I did notice both the 64 and 65 Canadian brochures on the site show side markers though. |
Yup, and brochures are another wealth of disinformation... at least where Type 3s are concerned.
Here's a prime example:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/68type3s/68t3pamp4.jpg
Fat side trim, 5 lug wheels, early number plate light, and no blanking slash under the VOLKSWAGEN... on a '68. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
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