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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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 Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:02 pm Post subject: Sunroof open stuck parts plastic cover cables FAQ |
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| [url=https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=548239&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=]Sunroof open stuck parts plastic cover cables FAQ[/url] |
Since sort of becoming the sunroof guru here, I get PM'd often with bay sunroof questions. This thread is a compilation of things that may help you fix your sunroof, decide whether to buy one or decide whether to convert to one. Please do not PM me on sunroofs unless you really get stuck with taking one apart or fixing one. I don't mind the questions but unless all you have wrong is $280 worth of broken cables, if you haven't set aside $1500 - $2000 for your repair work before thinking of installing one, all the answers in the world will not help you fix yours cheaply. Trust me - it is usually cables, plastic, seal, AND RUST that go wrong with them. I do not work on them for others however I have owned several sunroof buses and understand how to make them work. That is because they are under-designed and they require service. The same mechanism that a Beetle or T3 uses for their small sunroof is what moves a bay sunroof. In 400,000 miles in a 1971 sunroof deluxe I had maybe 3 sets of cables. That means about 40 - 60 openings and closes per cable set.
Basic sunroof info.
parts fiche:
http://vwbus2.dyndns.org/bulli/michaelk/vw_bus_d/fiche/t208700.html
http://vwbus2.dyndns.org/bulli/michaelk/vw_bus_d/fiche/t208800.html
The bay sunroof was designed by Golde. As of this writing NOS parts are almost non-existent. Cables, handles and felt seals have been reproduced or occasionally can be found new.
The sunroof consists of an inner and an outer panel. There is an early panel and a late panel - my guess is that 1968 is different as we looked at a panel at Interstate in Lake Elsinore that was slightly different than everything 1971 and later. I have heard 1970 and 1971 are the same so 1968 is a guess.
The inner panel floats in a pair of grooves in twin aluminum rails that are attached to each side of the top. It is held on to the outer panel by 5 clips at the front. To remove it without damaging it, it must be separated at the 5 clips, and the outer panel removed then the rails before it will come out. Trying to pry on the side of the inner liner to get it out WILL make the inner liner unusable and create a terrible mess getting the sunroof open.
The sunroof top is different than a normal bus in that it has an inner liner that strengthens the area, and a tray for the sunroof. This creates a triple layer of steel where the inner piece rusts thru the top. This rust comes from the inside and starts around the spot welds. Even in a dry climate, condensation inside the bus will start the rust process. At this time new sheetmetal is not available.
The sunroof tray is protected from exterior water by a felt seal. The original is still made and available. It is gray in color and has a steel backing. Many places sell three of the brown colored bug seals for a bus. They are not the same quality as the bus seal. Once water gets into the tray, it drains through two drains to the front and two drains to the rear. Some buses have additional drains in the middle. The drains in the front exit behind the front wheels in the painted portion of the wheel arch / B-pillar. The rear ones exit in the vented area. The center ones are in the center of the bus if they exist. There is a plastic tube from the sunroof drain to steel tubes inside the B-pillar. The steel tubes are not accessible without cutting open the B-pillar. Do not use compressed air to clean them out if they are plugged lest you rupture the rust in them. If they rupture, the water will come out inside the bus near the seats. If you have a sunroof bus that gets wet near the bottom of the B-pillar when it rains most likely your drain tubes have rusted thru.
To clean the drain tubes begin by pulling the plastic drains near the wheels. Use some heavy nylon cord like weed whacker cord to try to poke out the dirt that will have collected. If this fails, an old bicycle brake cable spun slowly with a drill may work. Try from below first then from above. Once mine were open I poured water thru to wash out any debris left then let it dry for a day with light air blowing thru it. Then I plugged the bottom, filled it with por-15 and IMMEDIATELY drained it, making sure air could still get thru it. If it fails and rusts through the only easy solution I can see is to kite a piece of string through with compressed air and pull some surgical hose through then seal the top of the hose to the drain opening at the top. There are bends in the drain tube so if it has rusted out one may not be able to push something thru, hence using air to push a thread or string thru to lead a piece of flexible tubing down.
Headliner. There is no UNIVERSAL sunroof headliner. Each few years VW changed the number of bows. You need to know how many bows your headliner has to order a replacement headliner. The bows are different lengths too so keep them in order. They have springs on the ends that you will need as well. The springs are available new as reproductions.
Plastic parts - as of this date they don't exist new. If you find any they are the Holy Grail. Repops are not available either. Pictures and part numbers are below for the plastic parts. Find good used ones. They will be brittle. They can be painted with plastic paint to look new.
241-877-365 - plastic
241-877-375- plastic
241-877-361- plastic
313-877-366A - plastic
313-877-281 5 clips on inner panel to outer panel
241-877-306 right cable
241-877-305 left cable
Adjustments - Bentley is the place to get the how to on adjusting a sunroof. It has excellent instructions and photos.
Getting a stuck sunroof out. It is really easy and not intuitive. Follow these instructions: To get it out if the gears are stripped you turn the handle like to open it and remove the handle - 1 screw. Pull the metal gearset out 2 screws.
With your fist hit down a few times on the back of the outer sunroof and the back will drop down the ramp a few inches. Open the roof with your hands. If it is sticky spray some wd-40 etc along both sides. Sometimes you just have to standup and push with your hands and some gloves to get it to open about 4 or 5 inches. If it is totally stuck closed use a wooden door shim to try to move it 1/16 inch then hit the back down with your palms. Move it a 1/16th then hit the back again. If you have two people, one gently pries with the shim and one hits down on the back at each side with their palms to try to get the back to slide down the ramps (photos below).
Once it is about 4 or 5 inches open, from the inside of the bus you use a screwdriver or wood shim etc to pop the inner panel clips out of their holes that hold the front of the inner panel to the front of the outer panel.
With the two separate the inner panel slides back into the area where the sunroof goes when it opens. Then you return the sunroof to almost closed and take out the screws underneath and unlatch the cables. It will lift out the top. Then the cables and rails, plastic etc come off. Then last the inner panel comes out. Assembly is reverse.
Cost - right now repop cables are made by EIS and sold all over. They sell around $280 USD a set. Headliner you are own your own but a TMI headliner and install at a shop will be around $1100. If the top is showing ANY rust, you better poke around up there because if there are pin holes, they will be back unless you replace the metal somehow. They will appear at the back of the sunroof first. Remember - it is the center of 3 pieces of sandwiched steel that is rusting outwards so it is coming back someday.
When you have the sunroof in and go to use it, after a few opening and closes, remove the handle and gear with it part way open and push back on the sunroof panel to get the cables even after they have stretched. Then put the gear back in etc. If it gets weird opening, do that again. The cables have to be 100% even or the top cocks opening and jams. Also, trying to use it fully open when driving causes a whoop whoop whoop sound that will hurt your ears. You can only open it about 2" when you are driving before it gets too noisy. The best use is a hot day - you open it 2" and a couple of side windows or vents where no one can get to a lock, and the bus will be cooler when you get back. It is nice on a spring day with a bed lying there in the sun. Don't fall asleep if it may rain with it open. Been there. Everything you own will be soaked when you finally wake up.
I will post photos of parts as I am able to upload them.
While I enjoy helping others, please do not PM me with sunroof questions unless you are really stuck as everything you need is here and in Bentley. If you want a sunroof that is great. Set aside $2000 and if it comes in less fixing it you are dollars ahead. If it is more I told you it might be. Also - if you have a bus with a sunroof opening but no top and you want to install one - look behind the front wheels to be 100% sure you have the drains. Without them your bus will end up a fish tank. Last - there have been many threads on sunroofs here. Some people simply weld them up. The acid in RTV eats the steel if you use that to seal them. Clear or smoked plastic is dumb because you are making your bus a solar oven / greenhouse. Some folks use a rag top conversion rather than fight with repairing a stock sunroof.
Rust on the top coming from inside:
What it looks like when media blasted:
What it going on:
Ramps that lift sunroof at back. If you look closely you can also see the aluminum rail with the channel for the inner panel and the cable inside the upper channel:
Row of spot welds holding 3 panels together:
Drains:
Front drain with plastic "valve" removed:
Cables above the crank:
Bow clip:
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin
Last edited by SGKent on Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:09 pm; edited 14 times in total |
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HarryFD
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Nice article. Thanks! 
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1973.5 911 Targa
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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FAQs
Q) I have a sunroof bus that someone modified to be a camper but it is gutted. I want to make it a sunroof bus again. Do you know the easiest way to get the parts?
A) Use the links in the thread above to look at the parts needed. There are many including the ramps that are welded in. Best to find a donor sunroof bus with good parts and use all those. Cables are usually broken so a set of those is about $280 plus shipping. A bus felt is around $130. Does it need a new headliner, if so add $1100 for that.
Q) How well does it work?
A) Priceless when you are lying on a bed in the back basking in the sun. Nice when the bus is cooler on a hot day cause you left the sunroof cracked open and all the heat went up and out. A PITA when the cables that are only two years old break cause it jams again. A PITA when you try to open it and drive and the noise is like someone boxing your ears.
Q) I found just a little rust up there. That shouldn't be a problem should it?
A) Yes, it is a big problem because it is rusting from the inside out. You are going to need a donor and a good sheet metal man to fix it right. You can get by for awhile by opening up all the holes and filling them with a hot zinc spray done by specialty restoration shops. How long it will last only Heaven knows.
Q) My cables have come loose at the ends. How do I fix that.
A) You throw them in the trash and buy new ones. That is where they break - if they don't strip first.
Q) My inner panel is all bent up from someone prying on it. How do I fix it?
A) Look for a donor with a straight one.
Q) Where do I buy the plastic parts on top?
A) Got me. I have been running an ad for months trying to find like NOS ones and no one has responded with good ones. The nicest used ones I've found are under lock and key in Europe by the owners who don't want to part with them yet.
Q) Will bug plastic or T3 plastic fit?
A) No. One piece of plastic is used in a T3 also but the others are bus only.
Q) Have you talked to anyone who makes the bug or T3 replacements about making bus ones?
A) Yes many times. They aren't interested because they feel the cost to make them won't be recooped by selling them. I''ve heard three or four times expect the cost to make repop molds to be about $15,000 if you first can find good ones to make copies from.
Q) What other options do I have?
A) Weld it shut. Tape it up and wait. Turn it into a rag top.
Q) Water comes out near the seat when it rains. I think my drain lines are rusted thru. What do I do?
A) Best solution I have seen so far is tie a tarp over the bus sunroof when it rains or seal it shut, weld it up.
Q) I've heard that some campers have sunroofs in them too stuffed in the back.
A) I have read threads where someone found a sunroof on an early bay stuffed way in the back with the rails taken out. Probably a rare event.
Q) Are sunroof buses worth more?
A) Depends on the buyer.
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Collie
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Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Excellent write up SGKent, this will be a great resource for those with sunroof buses to hopefully convince them to get them working!
Bravo! |
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aeromech
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Good job with that Mr. Kent.
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Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
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Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
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VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
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floydismydog
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Joined: October 19, 2010
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Location: Vay ID
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you so much. How timely. My 70 VW sunroof deluxe is in at my mechanic's place as we speak. He is the VW guru in this part of the country, he is an awesome technician. This is a last ditch effort to get this thing working. He insisted.  I have new cables and parts scrounged from Canada to the Mexican border. Wish us luck. |
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Collie
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Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| floydismydog wrote: |
| he is an awesome technician. This is a last ditch effort to get this thing working. He insisted. I have new cables and parts scrounged from Canada to the Mexican border. Wish us luck. |
Now THATS a good mechanic!!! |
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floydismydog
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Location: Vay ID
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| This is Mitch from The Shop in Sandpoint Idaho. He has people coming from Idaho, Montana, Washington, and Canada. He accepts no new customers and I am honored to be part of the family. |
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floydismydog
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| And I'm not going to PM any of them. *yikes* Guess I've been warned. |
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jakokombi
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Location: Milwaukee
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:59 am Post subject: |
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B.D. I just bought a seal #241 877 223 which Bus Depot advertised as a VW replacement. While the packaging is from VW this seal is only about 3.5 feet long. At $119.00 I will be sending it back. Do you have a part number for this perimeter seal?
Also, was this seal ever attached to the sunroof panel? I vaguely recall that my mothers 68' had the seal attached there. I also have the original seal to my 70' that the PO removed, and although trashed, it has a U fold that might suggest the same attachment on the lip of the panel.
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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These have been used since at least 1971. I don't know about 1968.
They appear to have shipped you the wrong one. The original 241 877 223 was a one piece gray seal with metal backing that is about 169 inches long. For years some folks substitute 3 brown Bug seals as one of those. In fact there are long Bug seals on E-bay these days that say "Nutria" for color. Nutria is brown so those are also bug seals but not yet cut into shorter pieces. What you want is the original 241 877 223 which is grey in color with metal backing. It is held on with elephant snot (yellow 3-m weather adhesive).
We get ours here cause I got tired of trying to explain to people what we needed. Ron promised me he would also stock them but I gave up trying to get one from him, although we get many other things from bus depot and have great results with him. http://www.vwheritage.com/vw_spares_Felt-seal-sun-...try_GB.htm
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HarryFD
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Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
These have been used since at least 1971. I don't know about 1968.
They appear to have shipped you the wrong one. The original 241 877 223 was a one piece gray seal with metal backing that is about 169 inches long. For years some folks substitute 3 brown Bug seals as one of those. In fact there are long Bug seals on E-bay these days that say "Nutria" for color. Nutria is brown so those are also bug seals but not yet cut into shorter pieces. What you want is the original 241 877 223 which is grey in color with metal backing. It is held on with elephant snot (yellow 3-m weather adhesive).
We get ours here cause I got tired of trying to explain to people what we needed. Ron promised me he would also stock them but I gave up trying to get one from him, although we get many other things from bus depot and have great results with him. http://www.vwheritage.com/vw_spares_Felt-seal-sun-...try_GB.htm |
I have a grey one piece seal from Mid America Motorworks (http://air-cooled-vw-parts-search.mamotorworkstv.com/search?p=Q&asug=&w=382028) that appears to be the correct length. Any thoughts?
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1973.5 911 Targa
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jakokombi
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Location: Milwaukee
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
These have been used since at least 1971. I don't know about 1968.
They appear to have shipped you the wrong one. The original 241 877 223 was a one piece gray seal with metal backing that is about 169 inches long. For years some folks substitute 3 brown Bug seals as one of those. In fact there are long Bug seals on E-bay these days that say "Nutria" for color. Nutria is brown so those are also bug seals but not yet cut into shorter pieces. What you want is the original 241 877 223 which is grey in color with metal backing. It is held on with elephant snot (yellow 3-m weather adhesive).
We get ours here cause I got tired of trying to explain to people what we needed. Ron promised me he would also stock them but I gave up trying to get one from him, although we get many other things from bus depot and have great results with him. http://www.vwheritage.com/vw_spares_Felt-seal-sun-...try_GB.htm |
OK SG, I called my brother (who would know, since he blew up mom's 68' just before I was old enough to learn to drive on it) and he says that the gray seal was on the body and not the panel. 
Agreed on Bus Depot. I have had thousands in transactions with them and never an issue. I'll get the seal elsewhere.
Thanks
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70 Sunroof Kombi
69 Tin Top
73 Thing
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| jakokombi wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
These have been used since at least 1971. I don't know about 1968.
They appear to have shipped you the wrong one. The original 241 877 223 was a one piece gray seal with metal backing that is about 169 inches long. For years some folks substitute 3 brown Bug seals as one of those. In fact there are long Bug seals on E-bay these days that say "Nutria" for color. Nutria is brown so those are also bug seals but not yet cut into shorter pieces. What you want is the original 241 877 223 which is grey in color with metal backing. It is held on with elephant snot (yellow 3-m weather adhesive).
We get ours here cause I got tired of trying to explain to people what we needed. Ron promised me he would also stock them but I gave up trying to get one from him, although we get many other things from bus depot and have great results with him. http://www.vwheritage.com/vw_spares_Felt-seal-sun-...try_GB.htm |
OK SG, I called my brother (who would know, since he blew up mom's 68' just before I was old enough to learn to drive on it) and he says that the gray seal was on the body and not the panel.
Agreed on Bus Depot. I have had thousands in transactions with them and never an issue. I'll get the seal elsewhere.
Thanks |
the was on my 1971 bus opening and not the sliding panel when it came from the factory. It is the same on my 1977 and every sunroof bus I have ever seen unless it was tampered with.
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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wanted to add to the thread.
I was lucky enough to find a set of original NOS sunroof cables courtesy of one of the members here. I would like to thank Scott at German Supply for pointing me in the direction of those cables and for his help locating them. Scott is an A1 guy.
There is a difference between the repops and the original golde cables. The Golde cables are about .005 larger in diameter than the repops. In addition they have cloth wound in between the coils of the cable. While that makes then a little snugger, the extra bite on the gear teeth helps keep the teeth from slipping. in addition the cloth helps keep the cable more rigid and it keeps dirt out of the track grooves where the cables run. The cables feel more rigid than the repops.
Now if someone could just locate some original NOS plastic pieces or metal ones like ISP West made for type 3 VW's, the installation would be complete. If EIS makes another run of the cables, I would suggest they make the OD .005 larger and add the cloth.
If anyone finds NOS or like NOS bay sunroof plastic please contact me and we can negotiate a price. If there is a machinist in the house capable of making some, contact me and give me a price to make the plastic pieces. Here is my ad for the 4 parts needed - if someone can make these there are lots of people looking for these parts all the time. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1414756
About 3 years ago I had a list of about 25 people who were willing to pay up to $250 for these 4 pieces so one would think it would be worth someone's time to make them.
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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tried the NOS cables after adjusting everything. Very smooth. Kinda pisses me off we have to settle for so many repop parts that don't work as well as the originals. Oh well. Maybe some day I'll find another NOS set as spares and NOS plastic. Someone has to have some for the right price - now just to find them.
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Please keep your eyes open for me at shows etc and let me know if you see any of these. Rewards will be considered.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1414756
Plastic parts -
241-877-365 - plastic
241-877-375- plastic
241-877-361- plastic
313-877-366A - plastic
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curtis4085
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| Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Steve don't know if your interested but I think I know someone who has a dealer service manual on the sunroof. I'm still trying to confirm but he said he had one and I thought of you.
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| curtis4085 wrote: |
| Steve don't know if your interested but I think I know someone who has a dealer service manual on the sunroof. I'm still trying to confirm but he said he had one and I thought of you. |
Thanks - it is covered pretty well in Bentley. The issue is finding the 4 pieces of plastic in good enough condition to use as a mold for replacements. I know there are other people who want these. I just wish someone would find a box full of these parts NOS as well as NOS cables and I could stock up. Right now with the NOS cables it works like new. Of course I still have the rust issue inside the top but what can one do. Not going to drill spot welds and remove three layers of top.
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Good news - Shawn at EIS has been able to repop 3 of the 4 pieces recently. I bought a set today and will report back how they work. I suspect that we have finally found a solution for the sunroof community.
http://www.eisparts.com/241877300.html
Thanks - Steve
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