Did I make the right Decision, copper gasket

flyboat

I have my engine down again. In the rebuild, I noticed a small amount of blow by soot on the head where the cylinder seats to the head. I had cylinder shims to set my CR. I decided to remove 040" shims and add in 040" copper head gasket in order to get a little crush on the gasket to seal that blow by. Note, I do have 100 shot of nitrous which could be where the blow by is coming from.

At any rate, do you think I will get a little crush from the copper ring to seal the head. Did I make the right decision or is there another option. I did lap the heads and cylinders this time around.
Thanks
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Danwvw · Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:36 pm Post subject:

I put these on a 1600 I built a few years ago. They sealed just fine. You would think they would help seal a leak because the copper would fit into any places that may be low.
I used to do a lot of leak testing and a copper seal of any kind will leak a little unless there is exact an exact pressure on the seal and I doubt that 4 bolts would be enough to seal a 4 inch dia area perfectly. It would likely take 16 studs and bolts. I would imagine any vw head seal copper or none leaks a little.
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Quokka42 · Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:54 pm Post subject:

Interesting. Try leaving the copper washer off your oil drain plug, or replace it with steel...

Copper has long been used for such sealing purposes, and you'll find it on a lot of other engines rather than VW's. An old V8 trick was to replace the composite head gasket with a coppper one, either to raise compression, or to seal better against blower pressure. You'll find them on fuellies, too.

The only thing I have wondered about is overheating, which would increase the pressure, or crush, on the washer and maybe annealing - but as I said, they have been used on a lot of engines for many years.
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Hotrodvw · Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:17 pm Post subject:

Watch your deck. I believe the copper gaskets will crush to .036" or so.
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mark tucker · Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:01 pm Post subject:

how much they crush will depend on whoose you have . the empi is way more dead soft that I have ever seen and would probably require a retorque sooner&possiably 2 times. dont for get the lower studs are longer, and thus will produce less force on the gasket, and then there is the valve springs......rockers... pushrods yes there trying to push the head off at the bottom, I would bet there leeking on the bottom arnt they??retorque them they will probably be just fine and go up a few pounds on the lowers.(2-3) I like my 8mm studs at 25 on the lower&22~23 on the uppers ( with good studs&good case) & retorque the lowers after a few heat cycles,Ive checked them all and the lowere almost always are looser and the uppers are still right where they need to be,so on my stuff I just retorque the lowers afetr a few days. but thats me.

Danwvw · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:50 pm Post subject:

Don't you have to remove the engine from the car to get to all the lowers?
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jfats808 · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:59 pm Post subject:

Danwvw · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:46 pm Post subject:

Oh thats right I was thinking uppers?
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jfats808 · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:23 pm Post subject:

Top half , carbs, shroud, dp tin comes off. Then you can do the top 4.
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Danwvw · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:43 pm Post subject:

It's good it is always the bottom that need tightening, I have noticed on older engines the top bolts that are outside the valve cover are somewhat frozen in place. The problem with tightening the ones inside the valve cover is it brakes the silicone seal I like to use to keep oil from leaking there. Need a copper Gasket there too!
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flyboat · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:18 pm Post subject:

My gaskets are from Air Cooled gear, which I think is Bugpack. They mic'd out at .0415". I thought they seemed fairly hard. Although I was expecting a softer material when I opened them. My math says my deck is .050" which should put my CR at 10.5. That's allowing for a .0015 crush
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mark tucker · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:55 pm Post subject:

the hard ones dont crush much but the soft ones do..oo35~.004 on the soft ones Ive seen, but I dont know exzactly what they were to start with.Ive mostly used bugpack&cb witch are hard.I do take the soft ones and torch them then quench them to stiffen them up a bit.and torch the used hard ones to soften them a bit(no quench). if you even need to resize them get the hard ones I think the soft ones would be too gummy to machine,I done the hard ones and no problem remachining them.I wonder if the empi's are just a orange colored soft lead?

Quokka42 · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:57 am Post subject:

Pure copper is quite soft - we often cut copper cables with a knife. Perhaps the hard ones are annealed already?
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Jimmy111 · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:47 am Post subject:

The only problems with the copper gaskets and the reasons copper is seldom used in this application anymore is that the copper reacts with the hydrocarbon vapors and forms a grease which burns off into carbon deposits. Evenually causing predetonation.
The other problem is that you need to retorque your head bolts all the time because the copper aneals and becomes softer.

Boolean · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:37 am Post subject:

mark tucker · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:11 am Post subject:

Ive never had to retorque once they have been compressed heat cycled&retorqued 1 time. all my vw stuff has them.
I had a set on my 340 mopar and after putting them on at the shop& driving it home the coolent was just pouring out the sides.I retorqued and never had any issue again.I lator used copper "O" rings(.034) around the chambers on a 13.8cr 340.I never noticed any greessee but I can see how some could get squeezzed out of a soft mettel, but dont see it as being an issue at all. At 13.8cr the chambers stay pretty clean.

Jimmy111 · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:21 am Post subject:

Its the pressure, temperature and moisture along with the copper.
There are many studies on it.

Boolean · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:25 am Post subject:

Can you point to one? I googled it without result.
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Quokka42 · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject:

Yes, I'd be very interested in that as well.
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rustybusjef · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject:

Please forgive me for butting in , but cant you anneal hard copper gaskets by getting them red hot and then letting them cool ?


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