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Experiences with a bad fuel pump and timing an 009
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ncstagger
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Experiences with a bad fuel pump and timing an 009 Reply with quote

After finally getting the "new" engine assembled and installed (71 bus AE 1600, mostly stock but for an 009) it would not run. Cranked excellent but wouldn't fire. Good spark at the plugs, no fuel in the carb.

Traced it to the fuel pump which was not putting out any fuel at all and was weeping some fuel out around the seam where the top portion sits on the bottom part. This is an og vw piersburg pump, the type that has a screw in the top so you can remove the cap and clean the screen. Bentley says they cannot be rebuilt so I have to get a new one.

Really hate when an original part dies. Most of the time I find an old original part works better than the new stuff. Oh well. I ordered two pumps, both Brosol, one looks almost identical to the original but does not have the screw so the cap doesnt come off. The other one is one of those where the outlet nipple is pointing straight up. I set that one in the box of spares and installed the one that looked original.

This time the engine started but something was obviously wrong. Had to hold the pedal to the floor to get it to run. Once the choke opened up I could let off and it would idle but low, like 650. Adjusting the idle I could get it to about 800 but that was with the idle speed screw almost all the way out (freshly rebuilt 34 pict-3). Plus it sounded wrong, like a tractor engine almost. Dwell was ok at 43, valves set at .006, choke operating correctly. Figured the timing was off so I set about determining TDC for real rather than using the marks on the pulley and sure enough I was way off so I reset the distributor so that the rotor pointed right at #1 when #1 piston was at TDC. To find TDC I used the degree wheel printout thing and confirmed by seeing that both valves were closed on #1 as was the #2 intake. #2 exhaust was open. As I turned the crank clockwise, the #1 exhaust began opening at 180 degrees and the intake followed. At TDC neither of the #1 valves move at all when I turn the crank about 90 degrees in either diriection. So I make my own mark on the pulley at zero/TDC and another at 30 degrees or a little over 1 3/4 inches from TDC. I think I will invest in a degree pulley to simplify this whole process.

I also opened the points up just a touch as 43 is on the low side for dwell.

The engine is a used longblock I have assembled/refreshed and my plan was to change the oil after running it for 15 minutes so since it ran about that long on the first attempt with the bad timing, I went ahead and changed the oil as planned.

Well it was a GOOD THING that I did! The oil stunk like gasoline and seemed thin. I guess the bad fuel pump had a hole in the diaphragm and allowed fuel to pour into the engine. I can only hope no damage was done. I have a buddy who builds Mopars and he'll fill an older engine up with kerosene, run it for 5 minutes or so and drain it out, says it cleans it out. VW's are not mopars but maybe it will be ok.

I drained all the oil out and opened the filler cap so it could air out, let it sit like that for an hour or more then added new oil. Decided to reset the carb per Bentley also. Hooked up oil temp and oil pressure gauges and started it.

Pumped the pedal twice, then held it part way down and turned the key. It fired right up instantly! Sounds like a vw bus should. Dwell is now 45, full advance on the 009 moves the timing less than 30 degrees so I had to move the distributor a bit to get it at 30 degrees at 3000rpm. Results in idle at about 5 degrees or so BDTC. Idle is great now, adjusted it as per Bentley, left it right around 900. Oil pressure around 15psi at idle once fully warm, about 44-45psi at 2500rpm .

No leaks anywere, oil temp never got much over 120 in the ten minutes or so it ran. True test will be tomorrow when I drive it and recheck everything.

Point of this thread being that if you have a bad fuel pump check your oil for gas! I imagine it could have done real damage if I had missed that.

Also, use the Bentley procedure for the idle adjustments and be sure and find a real TDC before you try to time. The 009 is different, it has to be timed at full advance, so you cant just use the tables from the Idiot book or an old chart. Time it with a light at full advance and let the idle timing be whatever it is. I've had 009's before and never had any trouble with one but I also have a rebuilt DVDA on the way. I'm interested in a comparison of the two.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Timely! Reply with quote

Wow, these are the exact same symptoms i'm having.

I have a '72 SB w/a stock 1600dp, and a Bocar 34-3 that I recently kitted. My original German SVDA gave up the ghost and I've had to use a spare (and less than 2 y/o) 009.

Trying to start it yesterday gave me the same exact symptoms you've described. I had the timing way too retarded and it took me a while to find TDC, finally did. Today I readjusted the valves and changed the oil. I'd probably ended up w/over a gallon of gasoline in the case due to flooding while trying to get it started yesterday. d'oh!

I think my problem is that the fuel pump is putting out too much pressure - the filter is full past the point where it connects to the hose that leads to the carbs fuel bowl, no air bubble at all.

I'm not very good w/some of this troubleshooting. I put a fatter gasket at its base, but it's still flooding. I always imagined a pump going bad would stop pumping gas, not pump too much.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!
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ncstagger
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For safety reasons I suggest you consider moving that fuel filter out of the engine compartment. I relocated mine into the line coming out of the bottom of the fuel tank and it sits above the tranny. At least put it before the fuel pump, not after where it is a pressurized line.

As to your current problem, if you are getting that much gas into the engine you may have a leaking pump like I had. Solution was a new pump.

Are you sure you have the right size pump rod?
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Resto thread here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=549162

"Take your most realistic time frame and dollar amount.. then add half of that amount. When you get that total... double it. Only then will you be in the ballpark." - sofaking
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:00 am    Post subject: Re: Timely! Reply with quote

vamram wrote:

I'm not very good w/some of this troubleshooting. I put a fatter gasket at its base, but it's still flooding. I always imagined a pump going bad would stop pumping gas, not pump too much.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!


Guessing your fuel pressure is high doesn't tell you much. Hook up a gauge and see what it really is.

If the engine is flooding it could be your float is saturated, not uncommon with today's fuels. There is a spec for how much you float should weigh somewhere out there.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you both for the recommendations. I have to buy a fuel pressure gauge, and will remove the filter from the engine compartment. I'm not sure about the push rod, but it's the pump/rod combo that was there when I bought the car.

I tested the float in warm water when I kitted the carb and it was good. That was about 3-4 weeks ago. Just to add some background, I took the car on a 450 mile trip in January w/out any problems...except the mpg sucked royally at an average of 13.2. Sick

I'll post back this weekend after I've picked up fuel gauge. Any recommendations on that tool? Harbor Freight...? Autozone...?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to congratulate you on the very nice write-up you've made here. Seems like you've been studying and have good knowledge of how things work. We all learn new things every day and it's great when we share them with others. Even at the risk of some possible ridicule. Get a camera, join photobucket, and start adding some art to your posts. Otherwise, great job.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me back up. I see that you have several pics in the samba gallery, great. Looks like you are doing a fine job restoring your 1971 bus. You also have a camera and know how to use it. Perfect.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everett Barnes wrote:
When posting photos, PLEASE consider posting the photos in the Samba Gallery instead of just posting links to some picture hosting site.

If you post it elsewhere, the photos often become "dead links" after a certain period of time, which ruins the thread where you posted the photos. If you post them in the Samba Gallery they are here forever. Not only that, but in the Gallery users can search for photos so much easier than they can in the forums. It's worth it.



Thanks for using the Samba Gallery, we appreciate it.
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ncstagger
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks aeromech and dbm.

I really dont know what I would do without the Samba and the people like you who share their experience with others. Its highly possible that I (and probably countless others) would simply not be able to do what we're doing with our vw's.

When I got back into VW's recently I realized that around here, with very few exceptions, there were no longer any places left that work on them so if I wanted it done I would have to learn to do it myself. I cant even begin to describe how satisfying it is to drive my bus with the engine purring like its brand new and realize that somehow, with lots of help, I made that happen!

thanks again
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Resto thread here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=549162

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, exactly. They don't make cars with carburetors and points any more so I doubt the tech schools even teach students the subject. A lot of times your bus is actually older than the mechanic working on it.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So did you eventually get the 009 to work with the 34/3?

I had the worst time trying to get a friend's bug to run with that combo, and this is the only solution that worked for us:

http://www.flaktfolket.se/tips%20o%20trix/documents/solex%2034%20pict-3%20kompatibel%20med%20009.pdf

I run a 009 and a 30/31pict and have no trouble, but I couldn't get my bus to idle with a 34/3 and a 009.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 1971 bus ran great using a Solex 34-3 carb along with a Bosch 009 distributor. I ran this setup for decades
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
My 1971 bus ran great using a Solex 34-3 carb along with a Bosch 009 distributor. I ran this setup for decades


Good to know, thanks.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
My 1971 bus ran great using a Solex 34-3 carb along with a Bosch 009 distributor. I ran this setup for decades


That setup worked fabulous on my bus for years until I put on the duals. And that combo has been working great on my bug for 15 years.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes its running beautifully.

a lot of the reason is the top quality carb rebuild done by a samba member, Volkzbitz.

also its a german 009.
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Resto thread here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=549162

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you're good to go
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Finally Reply with quote

Well, my problem was the fuel pump - bad diaphragm. Put in a new fuel pump and gaskets, changed the oil - 2x - after having the case fill w/gas while troubleshooting. Now i'm running again and trying to get the 009 timed properly.

Thank you Bus People for your great posts! Applause
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:04 am    Post subject: 009 OK Reply with quote

The car ran fine w/the 009 once I correctly identified the TDC on the #1 and got the wires in the right place and timed. Not even a dead spot.

I got the SVDA back in w/a Pertronix electronic ignition, but w/a pretty major dead spot. I timed it per instructions for SVDA, not at idle but at 3500 RPM.

Either I need to advance it more or the vacuum canister is shot, I guess. I can manually move the vacuum plate, plug the canister's vacuum hose spout w/my finger. I let go of the plate it pops back into it's position even w/the spout plugged. I remove my finger from the spout and I get that distinct pop of air sucking back into the canister. I thought the plate was supposed to stay in place until I uncover the spout.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manually moving it and capping the nipple isn't really a good test but since it's holding vacuum it sounds like it's OK, what happens when you suck on it?

As for timing @ 3500 RPM was that with the hose on or off?, where is the hose connected to the carb?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hose off and plugged at the carb and the canister. I haven't tried the sucking bit since the 40 y/o part is kinda gross. Sick But I'll have a go at it this afternoon and report back.
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