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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2903 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:54 pm Post subject: A heated experiment: Ghia bus blower conversion |
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The type 1 heating system is a thing of beauty in most situations. It has one primary moving part, which it shares with the engine cooling duties. The remainder of parts that do move on occasion are simple levers, wires, and flaps. And, as long as the path to it's destination remains intact, the warm air will flow forever. To date, we've never had a complaint from passengers about heat in our 1970 Ghia coupe. It's warm and toasty on the freeway, and I'll usually have to turn it down once we get a few miles down the road. Around town it's comfortably warm with adequate flow, and about the only thing I wish I could change is that when the car is at idle, the air flow almost stops. It's not a big deal a traffic lights, but only in extended circumstances like a drive-through restaurant or waiting for someone in the car. What led to this experiment is recently waiting for my daughter to come out of work from her afternoon shift. The wind was buffeting and shaking the the car while parked, it was 9 degrees fahrenheit outside, and for the first time I was cold in the Ghia. The heat was nice and hot, it's just that there was not enough of it being pushed into the car in this situation.
So, I picked up a used bus fan with two outlets, a pair of relays, a beetle fan switch (or so I was told), and a pair of plumbing test caps to plug the fan shroud openings.
As usual, I wanted to make this easily reversible and used existing holes everywhere possible, with the exception being a 1/8th inch hole in the back of the rear pulley tin. This was for testing purposes, so I don't expect many people to try this, and for this reason I won't bore you with EVERY detail. Photos and a wiring diagram are included for those who are curious, and there are those few souls who may decide that a bus blower will improve their situation. I came to my own conclusions after testing, and those notes are at the end of this post.
The first problem was where to put it. The blower looked awkward off to the side and would require much longer hoses, so I found that I could nestle it so the blower motor was above the main pulley. There was a threaded hole already in the tin, and mounting it to the tin would allow the blower to move with the engine to minimize hose flex. The blower mount was flipped upside down and bolted to the tin, and this location allowed me to use the original hoses if I swapped sides. I had to trim the right side of the mount so it would not damage the compartment seal. Wiring was the tricky part, and I had to create a schematic so it would not end up looking like our dash wiring
Despite the two relays and all the wiring in the engine compartment, there were only a small pair of control wires coming from the switch below the dash (18 gauge), and two heavy gauge (14) wires to the blower and everywhere else. All wires and connections stayed cool after hours of non-stop running. This vehicle was formerly an autostick, so the former mounting plate made a nice spot for the relays.
Here is the blower installed
These are the two control relays; one for high speed, one for low speed. The dash switch does not have to handle any load but turning the relay on and off.
This is the wiring schematic
Results in the real world
After testing the electrics, I went for a drive and was pleasantly surprised at the output. There is not a lot of noise from the fan and you can hear it at idle, but not while driving. The day was sunny and cold, with temperatures being in the twenties. The heat began flowing soon and the car started getting comfortable within 3 or 4 minutes. One trick you can do is turn the blower off for a couple minutes and get the heater boxes nice and warm. I can say that the whole trip was comfortable, but not exceptional, and I found myself wishing I had more heat on the freeway. However, everywhere else I was happy. Pulling up in the driveway and sitting for a moment, it was nice to have the same amount of heat coming out as when driving. This is great for sitting in the car while waiting for someone while the frigid winter wind blows.
Direct comparison
In terms of actual air flow, the bus blower output is equal to the stock shroud at about 2500 rpm (about 45mph in my car) if the thermostat is not 100% open (or missing). With the thermostat wide open, it takes about 3000 rpm to equal the bus blower. A properly functioning thermostat will vary in position while driving to regulate engine temperature, and when it's extra cold outside it closes more, which forces more air through the heating system. The bus blower is better around town at moderate speeds, but on the freeway, the stock shroud wins hands down.
Conclusion
For around town driving, short trips, or if you spend a lot of time with stop and go traffic in winter, then the bus blower will probably work to your advantage. You can get heat sooner, and more of it at any speed below 50mph. However, if you do a lot of highway driving like I do, the stock system will be better suited. After a couple days of testing, I removed the bus blower because the weather is warming up, but may put it back in when it gets cold again. Each way has it's advantages, and actually you CAN have both systems in place and working at the same time, allowing you to enjoy the best of both worlds. Granted, you will lose the ability to turn off air though the heater boxes to get them hotter, but all the other advantages of both systems would be there. All it requires is a "Y" connector where the hose goes through the tin, and you can have the stock heat by default, and just flip the switch when you need a heat boost. The fan housing for the bus blower has flaps on both outlets to prevent backflow, and they would also prevent pressure from the shroud outlets from blowing out through the bus fan. Well that settles it... I know how I'm gonna have it setup next winter!
Paul |
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:22 am Post subject: |
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Nice! Was the blower stable with just one screw? _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2903 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:44 am Post subject: |
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ivwshane wrote: |
Nice! Was the blower stable with just one screw? |
Actually no, so that is were I drilled the extra hole in the tin. There's a 10mm bolt on one leg of the mount, and a self tapping screw on the other leg. It was fine after that.
Paul |
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NOVA Airhead Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2005 Posts: 5221 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Certainly an intersting experiment. Yes where the type 1 systems fall down is during extended idle. The flow just isn't there. _________________ Ghia Owner Emeritus |
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CLKWRK Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2001 Posts: 566 Location: Toronto
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Volfandt Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2012 Posts: 500 Location: Knox County, East TN
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Good job Paul. Another thought would be to somehow have the aux fan blower pull it's air from the cabin, recirculating already warm air.
Course it would take alot of cutting & ducting, unfortunately. _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia, the Dragon slayer.... |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Back in the day there was Vulcan fans to be installed under the rear seat.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/vulcan_heater.php
Big problem with installing a fan/s in the engine compartment and blocking off the fan shroud to the HEs is the engine will run quite a lot hotter if one does not run the fan/s ALL OF THE TIME. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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dubulup Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2008 Posts: 387 Location: Earth People
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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CLKWRK wrote: |
I have two boat blowers up front in the cabin in mine, they work but are noisy, I like your solution as it is probably quieter.
Add a couple of Y pipes up to the shroud and mount the fan upright so the internal check-flaps work and you can have the booster fan system work exactly like it does in the bus ... Win! |
Long time! Welcome back |
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2903 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Volfandt wrote: |
Good job Paul. Another thought would be to somehow have the aux fan blower pull it's air from the cabin, recirculating already warm air.
Course it would take alot of cutting & ducting, unfortunately. |
You could actually do that with one duct from the rear luggage area going to the intake in the blower. The stock shroud would provide fresh air and the blower recirculated air. But, I did not want to cut the car for that, and if I was going to cut it, I would duct the air from the oil cooler though a control box that would sent the hot air from that (and it's a lot) into the car for winter and dump into the trans area in the summer.
Paul |
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2903 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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CLKWRK wrote: |
Add a couple of Y pipes up to the shroud and mount the fan upright so the internal check-flaps work and you can have the booster fan system work exactly like it does in the bus ... Win! |
Yep, I'll have to work on that. I had flipped the fan mount so the fan was installed right side up specifically for proper flap operation. If the flaps are not functional and the control for the heat ducts in the car are left open, then air will be pulled backwards through the system by the normal low pressure in the engine compartment. This would not seem to be a problem at first, until you consider that the air would be flowing backwards through the heat exchangers and the fan, which is plastic... |
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2903 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
Big problem with installing a fan/s in the engine compartment and blocking off the fan shroud to the HEs is the engine will run quite a lot hotter if one does not run the fan/s ALL OF THE TIME. |
Yes, I considered that, and that would be solved by having both the shroud ouput and the fan. I don't think the extra heat would be a problem in the winter, but I did try and run with no fan for a while and could smell the boxes getting hotter than usual, so I left the fan on even when not needed for heat. Would definetly be a problem in the summer.
Paul |
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Endopotential Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2012 Posts: 186 Location: Pacifica, California
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Paul et al,
Looks like a great project!
I don't mean to hijack your thread, but wondering if I could ask for your guys' input?
I used to have quite the smell of exhaust through my heater vents, on my '69 couple. I took out the heater boxes - they looked to be recently replaced, in good shape, without any leak using water to test the pipe. Then I put them back in, taking care to seal all the joins with some high temp red silicone gasket sealant. Definitely a huge improvement.
But I haven't had the chance to ride in many old VW's for comparison. Should I expect ANY smell at all inside the car? Either wafting in through the heater system, or from the engine bay? Older folks I know all say "yeah, old VW's always smell" but I'm not sure what's acceptable.
Thanks as always for the great posts and info. |
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NOVA Airhead Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2005 Posts: 5221 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Endopotential wrote: |
Dear Paul et al,
Looks like a great project!
I don't mean to hijack your thread, but wondering if I could ask for your guys' input?
I used to have quite the smell of exhaust through my heater vents, on my '69 couple. I took out the heater boxes - they looked to be recently replaced, in good shape, without any leak using water to test the pipe. Then I put them back in, taking care to seal all the joins with some high temp red silicone gasket sealant. Definitely a huge improvement.
But I haven't had the chance to ride in many old VW's for comparison. Should I expect ANY smell at all inside the car? Either wafting in through the heater system, or from the engine bay? Older folks I know all say "yeah, old VW's always smell" but I'm not sure what's acceptable.
Thanks as always for the great posts and info. |
You should not have much of a smell, if any. It seems on both my cars I get a slight smell when I first turn on the heat but it quickly goes away. _________________ Ghia Owner Emeritus |
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2903 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Endopotential wrote: |
But I haven't had the chance to ride in many old VW's for comparison. Should I expect ANY smell at all inside the car? Either wafting in through the heater system, or from the engine bay? Older folks I know all say "yeah, old VW's always smell" but I'm not sure what's acceptable. |
If you are driving or facing the wind, you should never smell exhaust fumes, though if just starting off or backing up, my might get a wiff like Nova mentions.
There's only two ways for exhaust to get into your VW, and that is
1. The car is stationary or has the back facing the wind, and some fumes get picked up by the engine fan through the decklid vents.
2. Your exhaust system leaks.
Number one can be avoided by being mindful of wind direction if you have to sit in a running car. Always park facing the wind, or at least so that the wind carries exhaust away from the car. This goes for all cars, both vintage and modern. Also, I usually wait until I pull out of the driveway to turn the heat on.
For number two, you just have to fix the leak. You already tested the heater boxes, but I will say that pressure testing with air is more reliable than water testing. If your boxes are good, then you will need to examine the flange gaskets on the head, and where the pipes connect to the muffler, and especially the heat riser gaskets and pipes.
If your exhaust is leaking, then get it fixed or don't use the heat. Carbon monoxide binds with human hemoglobin and prevents your blood from carrying oxygen...
Paul |
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slowghia Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2008 Posts: 13 Location: riverside
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hey paul
Hook your blower motor to only one of heater boxs and then hook the other side (like stock) to the fan shroud. You will have the best of both worlds.
Good luck
Robert |
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2903 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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CLKWRK wrote: |
Add a couple of Y pipes up to the shroud and mount the fan upright so the internal check-flaps work and you can have the booster fan system work exactly like it does in the bus ... Win! |
Just double checking, but are you saying that buses with this blower use air from the blower AND the shroud?
Paul |
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CLKWRK Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2001 Posts: 566 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:15 am Post subject: |
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dubbulup - I never left, just been lurking from across the pond.
Altema - yes as far as I remember my T4 bus had continuous airflow blowing through the heater boxes from the engine fan in the same way that the T1 does, but have a second inlet in the heater box for the booster fan. The one way flap in the booster fan is meant to keep the engine fan air pressure from leaking out of the booster fan inlet when it isn't on.
Heater boxes will overheat if they don't always have some air flowing through them, even when the heat is turned off in the summer. _________________ 1971 ghia build:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=336744&start=0
Type 4 upright build:
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=134056
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/vantageaircooled/ |
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2903 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:29 am Post subject: |
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CLKWRK wrote: |
Heater boxes will overheat if they don't always have some air flowing through them, even when the heat is turned off in the summer. |
Yeah, I experienced the smell from the outer skin getting hot for the first time and turned the blower on. It might be a good way to burn off that oil that drips on them from valve adjustments... or not
The blower I have does have the one-way flaps installed on both discharge outlets. They only work when the blower is right-side-up, which is why I flipped the mount the opposite way. So, I should be fine with a simple y pipe going thought the engine tin. Thanks for the tips!
Paul |
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swavananda Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2009 Posts: 889 Location: Can o' Scruz
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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figured i should add my experiment here, since this thread inspired me to pull the bilge blower i installed to inspect it after 1 1/2 years of use.
I cut up an aftermarket accordion tube and placed a attwood bilge blower inline.
the results are worth it. the fan really pushes the air out. it has melted and distorted a little but still works fine after all this time. as seen in last pic ,the fan had ground a bit then smoothed out. i have read people say these melt and fail all the time but this is a real world example that it isn't always so. my engine is a 1776 ,well tuned and clean with no issues to cause overheat .
you can get these blowers for $25 bucks .
it's a little loud but less so than if installed under the rear seat like some have suggested.
this was done just to the driver side but i am convinced enough now to go ahead and do the other side. |
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2903 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Went ahead and did it proper. Purchased two 1.5 inch inside diameter PVC "Y" connectors, a length of the paper covered metal tubing, and some extra couplers. I found that the normal tubing was almost the same diameter as the outside of the Y pipes, so I got out the angle grinder with a cutoff wheel and cut off the ends. After much trimming, the stock hose slipped on and could be clamped. The clamps were important, as one of the problems I had with the initial install was the hoses blowing off. The outlets on the bus blower are two different sizes. The left side was a nice snug fit for the stock coupler (the one that connects the hose to the heater box through the tin). The right side was larger and the hose would fit inside, but there was no way to secure it there. What I did was cut a plumbing test cap in half so I had a thick band of rubber, then inserted the short end of the coupler into that, and worked this into the blower outlet. The fit was very tight, so it's not going anywhere.
The Y pipe fit easily on the left side. The right side was different and I had to go around the preheater pipe and re-position the air cleaner snorkel by rotating it an inch. The Y pipes have one piece that is straight, and the connector comes in from the side at an angle. I chose this specific fitting to help airflow. As mentioned earlier, the bus blower has flaps that prevent shroud air from leaking out of the fan housing when the bus blower is turned off. You also probably noticed that I have the expandable metal tubes through the engine tin instead of the proper couplings, but this is because I run a header. Stock mufflers allow the airflow to pick up a little heat from cyl 2 and 4 before going into the heater box for cyl 1 and 3. With the Bugpack header, the tube goes straight to the heater box and gets heat only from cyl 1 and 3.
So, how's it work now? One word: great. Normal driving with this setup produces twice the heat, and you can feel the defroster blowing on your face. At idle, it's ten times better. Tonight was very cold for this time of year, and it was raining ice pellets (literally). I ran out to a gas station to get a late snack for our son (and myself!), and I was comfortable sitting in the car at idle with my coat unzipped. On the freeway, the airflow with the shroud and blower combined was equal to medium-high on our modern car's four speed fan setting. Not low, and not medium, but medium-high. I literally had no desire for more heat, and could have removed my jacket.
The conclusion is that, so far, there's no downside except for not looking stock. The system works like 100% stock with the blower off. Turn it on and you have real heat at idle and cruising, and you can defog your windscreen at a stoplight.
Excuse the pics below; my camera is not available so I had to use my phone.
Blower in position, and ready to roll.
Here's the left side showing the Y pipe. Fresh air flows though this the moment the engine starts, but I'm monitoring it to see if the plastic distorts from heat soak from the exhaust when the car is tuned off. If it can't handle the heat, then I'll have to fabricate some metal Y's.
This is the right side. Things are tight here because of the pre-heat pipe...
This is a rubber test cap, like the one I sliced and used to fit the right side blower opening.
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