Can the 1.8t run backward?

xoo00oox · Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:25 pm Post subject:

Already on top of that. I have an AEB in my engine stand and a pile of different idlers, tensioners, and timing belts on the floor under it. I'm trying to get the tensioner on the other side of the cam. The ALH has two idlers on the tight side of the belt and those bearing hold up well. We will need an idler on the tight side to keep the belt from rubbing on the cyl head casting.

xoo00oox · Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:40 am Post subject:

I believe I have the oil pump sorted out.

Here is the 1.8t oil pump drive parts

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Here are the diesel oil pump drive parts.

what is pictured there is the bottom of f1.6 diesel vac pump I cut up. The smooth side of the timing belt is what drives the diesel intermediate shaft thus it is reverse the rotation of the crankshaft.

Here are the Tdi and 1.8t oil pumps, 1.8t to the right.

The top view of the diesel oil pump through the block

The diesels have oil running up the oil pump shaft to lube the vacuum pump, I cut the shaft off just above the lower bearing in the vac pump base and welded the hole up so we don't lose all the oil pressure. I just need to make a cap for the aluminum vac pump base and I believe it will be all set. I also pulled the gear off the diesel intermediate shaft and pressed it on the 1.8t one.

JPrato · Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:18 am Post subject:

The mechanical tensioner would handle the load but taking slack up would then slightly affect the cam timing. More brain cramps....
_________________
Joe

87 Syncro Tin Top project
84 Westy, 2.5L Subaru power
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xoo00oox · Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:15 pm Post subject:

xoo00oox · Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:13 pm Post subject:

The transmission I have out on the floor happens to be from a V6 passat, code DVZ. I used the very cool gear chart on this site http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalculator.php?kmh...on+1+%26+2

This is what my speeds/rpm would be using that trans. (red) compared to the stock 2.1 trans. (blue)

Sure looks nice to me.

Andrew-

?Waldo? · Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:47 pm Post subject:

Could you have just installed the diesel vac pump, pulled the vanes and plugged the oiling hole in the center?

xoo00oox · Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:02 pm Post subject:

trailrunr · Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:56 am Post subject:

I missed the point about installing the engine in a syncro, otherwise why run it backwards at all. GM built the Fiero with no mods at all. The A body(mid size front wheel drive) engines and transmissions were used as a drop in with a new cradle. I would almost think that reversing the ring and pinion would be simpler, but I have never been in a vanagon transaxle. Maybe something like the sand rail mid engine conversions.
Many engines are built with a small amount of piston pin offset (since compression cycles drive the piston in to the wall) I would want to check that also before running it backwards

xoo00oox · Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:16 am Post subject:

GM also built the Corvair that had a rear engine spinning backward.

Your right about the pistons, I have one out but not off the rod yet to measure the pin offset. The pistons look like they can be put in backward with just minor work.
There is a small notch at the bottom of the skirt for clearance of the piston squirter. There is also a small notch on the edge of the top for clearance of the middle intake valve. Both would be easy to put on the opposite side.

Zeitgeist 13 · Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:48 am Post subject:

We've thrown out all the technical reasons that you can't make this happen, and one by one you've found solutions to each. This is an awesome project. If you were closer, I'd volunteer my time to assist.
_________________
Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

xoo00oox · Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:08 pm Post subject:

Well keep throwen 'em at me, I'm sure there are things I have not thought of yet and I'd like to hear any thoughts on this.

Thanks Casey, just make a quick jump across the country and I'll put you to work.

I first looked into using a later 1.8t with the internal coolant pump, that engine like the ALH uses an oil pump driven by the crankshaft with a chain, I couldn't easily find a way to make the oil pump work so I went with the AEB.

Andrew-

xoo00oox · Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:46 am Post subject:

I'm adding a few pictures here just for reference.

ENGINE-

TRANSMISSION-
transmission output gear

transmission diff (2wd)

transmission diff (quattro)

rear diff (possible front diff????!!!!)

It looks to me like its all reversible with mostly taper roller bearings used to control axial alignment. Anyone have other thoughts on this?

?Waldo? · Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:21 am Post subject:

Is the cam timing as simple as rotating one of the cams 180°? Or rather, intake advanced 90° relative crank rotation and exhaust retarded 90° from the stock locations?

insyncro · Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:33 am Post subject:

Wow Flint....way to think outside the box.

I am close by and can lend a hand if you need some labor force.

xoo00oox · Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:35 am Post subject:

Andrew-
I think you may be right. Here is a typical cam profile...

It does look like you could put the intake lobe 180° off to get the correct position. I was planning on measuring valve lift at a given degree then rotate the crank the same degree but opposite rotation and set it like that. The lobes look the same on the opening and closing side, I understand some cams are not like this.
It would save me time if I knew I only needed to swing one cam 180°.

Hi Dylan- stop in anytime, try to make a point of going to Lichfield show with us this year.

If this does prove to work, there is a huge number of transmissions to chose from to get the gearing you want, very cheap for most of them also.

Andrew-

* interesting factoid, Audi A4 wheelbase is only 6" longer than a vanagon.

?Waldo? · Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:30 pm Post subject:

If you consider that each stroke of the crank is 90° of cam rotation, if you are spinning it backwards, you really just want to swap the intake and exhaust positions. Moving the intake a stroke sooner (90° advanced) relative the new crank direction, and the exhaust a stroke later (90° retarded) does just that. That is assuming, of course, that the cam lobes are symmetrical. If they aren't, that's still the best you can do aside from custom cams.

xoo00oox · Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:03 pm Post subject:

Thank you Libby for saving me that headache. That saves a lot of time. Now go take two Asprin.

I believe the starter is done.

[

The only 1.8t starter parts used are the solenoid and the aluminum housing. Bench tested and it spins backwards. Its getting hard to remember what is forward and what is backward now. The shaft sticks out about a 1/4" into the bell housing, if it is a problem, it will meet the bench grinder.

Andrew-

Rocky Mountain Westy · Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:57 pm Post subject:

Man, I can barely get a oil change done on my car.. Good Job.

Sounds like a interesting project. I hope it works after you have all the time in it.

I am tuned in and watching from the grand stands
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970-310-3441
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The Splitzgauer build (when I have time to work on it and update the thread)

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=497133

shadetreetim · Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:15 am Post subject:

Threads like these keep the Samba interesting. Thanks for letting us follow along. Applause

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Tim Potts

Doing my best every time I drive it to dispel the myth these Vanagons have to be slow!

'89 Vanagon Bluestar/Country Homes 1.8T & .77 4th
'74 Jeep CJ5

xoo00oox · Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:34 pm Post subject:

Everybody should get to the grand stands, there might be a big crash!

It's funny, every time I see someone has posted on this thread, I get nervous thinking that someone is going to point out that one little thing I did not consider that will prevent this project from working.

This block is a little nicer to work with now...


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Can the 1.8t run backward?
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