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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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 Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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It still seems like the exhaust should be roughly at 10:00/11:00 and the intake should be at 1:00/2:00
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| xoo00oox wrote: |
| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
| If you consider that each stroke of the crank is 90° of cam rotation, if you are spinning it backwards, you really just want to swap the intake and exhaust positions. Moving the intake a stroke sooner (90° advanced) relative the new crank direction, and the exhaust a stroke later (90° retarded) does just that. That is assuming, of course, that the cam lobes are symmetrical. If they aren't, that's still the best you can do aside from custom cams. |
here is the factory cam location marks for TDC #1
when those marks are lined up, #1 cam lobes look like this.
If we turn the exhaust cam 90* ccw, the mark lines up perfectly with top machined surface of the head.
and we turn the intake 90* cw, the mark also lines up with the top of the head.
Then the cam lobes for #1 cyl look like this. All set for CCW rotation.
The new firing order will be 1-2-4-3. I'll have to swap the ignition coil plug and injector plug from 2 to 3 and 3 to 2. |
That last pic seems to jibe with my understanding of how to align the cams for CCW. Looks like 10:00 and 2:00
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, read all of that as part of my homework for this part of the project. It all makes sense, but we know empirically that 90*-from-factory like that isn't right -- because when the first CCW AEB was run with those cam settings:
| xoo00oox wrote: |
All eight exhaust valves were tapping the pistons. I had turned it over by hand plenty of times before starting it and they did not hit, I assume because the lifters were not full of oil and I was not getting full lift. |
Andrew advanced the exhaust cam and retarded the intake cam from those positions and got it dialed successfully enough that he's built more of these CCW engines, though how much from the initial 90*-from-factory position isn't mentioned. I've also advanced the exhaust cam and retarded the intake from the initial 90*-from-factory position, and while the cam lobe positions look odd or "off", the valve opening and closing events measure out in what seem (to me) to be perfectly acceptable positions. The intake is retarded 10* from factory spec (8* vs 18* opening, 18* vs 28* closing), but I was unable to get it any closer.
The later 1.8t (AWW and beyond) has variable cam phasing which moves the intake opening from 18*ATDC to 4*BTDC (and the closing from 28* to 6* ABDC) so having the intake cam retarded, while not ideal, is obviously not a deal breaker either. With what I've learned about how the VCT chain tensioner works, it seems reasonable to me that one could set the intake cam advanced farther, then use the solenoid to retard it 22* and maybe get closer to the factory 18* ATDC opening .. but I'm not sure that would be reliable for long-term use, or if it would realistically let you get any closer than static cam timing would.
Thanks for the thoughts and input, for posting that animation yesterday that helped me realize I'd inadvertently left out the compression and power strokes in the cycle. I think I'll call it good and button it up tomorrow and see if I can at least bolt it to the transmission and hook it up for a test run. Maybe see if I can get my buddy to come down off the mountain with his GoPro for video footage.  |
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xoo00oox
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010
Posts: 2672
Location: East Nassau, NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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for anyone interested. I am starting work soon on putting a CCW 1.8t and a five speed transmission in my Bay van. Im using the engine I already have built that I removed from my Quattro van.
going into this van...
Follow along here....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668352 |
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tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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| xoo00oox wrote: |
| for anyone interested. I am starting work soon on putting a CCW 1.8t and a five speed transmission in my Bay van. |
I better hurry up and get mine done, now that it looks to be turning into a race. Hope this doesn't mean you'll quit talking to me. 
Curious to see what you come up with for the shifting/shift linkage... |
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xoo00oox
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010
Posts: 2672
Location: East Nassau, NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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| tristessa wrote: |
| xoo00oox wrote: |
| for anyone interested. I am starting work soon on putting a CCW 1.8t and a five speed transmission in my Bay van. |
I better hurry up and get mine done, now that it looks to be turning into a race. Hope this doesn't mean you'll quit talking to me.
Curious to see what you come up with for the shifting/shift linkage... |
Hey Tritess-,
I'm looking forward to seeing yours progress! Hopefully you'll find a solution for the clutch master before I get to it.
Andrew- |
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levi
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 5522
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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| tristessa wrote: |
| xoo00oox wrote: |
| for anyone interested. I am starting work soon on putting a CCW 1.8t and a five speed transmission in my Bay van. |
I better hurry up and get mine done, now that it looks to be turning into a race. Hope this doesn't mean you'll quit talking to me.
Curious to see what you come up with for the shifting/shift linkage... |
I would have thought cable shift.
No ?
Andrew suggested on the other thread that it was easier than fabricating a whole linkage from scratch.
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One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:59 am Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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Those guys in the Bay section are certifiably nuts
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Those guys in the Bay section are certifiably nuts |
That's some of why I started hanging out over here with you guys even though I have a Bay. |
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CdnVWJunkie 
Samba Member
Joined: February 01, 2004
Posts: 1110
Location: Sarnia, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Those guys in the Bay section are certifiably nuts |
Touché |
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xoo00oox
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010
Posts: 2672
Location: East Nassau, NY
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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| levi wrote: |
| tristessa wrote: |
| xoo00oox wrote: |
| for anyone interested. I am starting work soon on putting a CCW 1.8t and a five speed transmission in my Bay van. |
I better hurry up and get mine done, now that it looks to be turning into a race. Hope this doesn't mean you'll quit talking to me.
Curious to see what you come up with for the shifting/shift linkage... |
I would have thought cable shift.
No ?
Andrew suggested on the other thread that it was easier than fabricating a whole linkage from scratch. |
Most likely it will be the Boxster cables and shifter. I actually look forward to driving in city traffic with my Quattrosyncro now just so I can shift it. |
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tarandusVDub
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 1649
Location: Between Here and There
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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Fantastic work. Have enjoyed this thread since the beginning. Curious what mods you have in mind for suspension on the bay with that engine. Having owned a 72 Westy for years, I'd think the stock suspension would be crap with the additional horses. ..
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1990 Syncro 16" DoppleKabine 2.1 DJ 112i
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Sold: 1972 Bay Campmobile; 1984 Westy, base model, 2WD. |
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xoo00oox
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010
Posts: 2672
Location: East Nassau, NY
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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| Thanks taran'. My plan with the bay is to keep it stick except for the enge and trans. I like the handling of the late Bay vans when all the suspension and brakes are in good shape and good reinforced tires. I'll probably put the bay van up for sale once it's completed and well tested. I've got too many cars. |
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xoo00oox
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010
Posts: 2672
Location: East Nassau, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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Link
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bobbyblack
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4351
Location: United States, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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That is over the top awesome. Like always.
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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dobryan
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Location: Brookeville, MD
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vanagonjr
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Joined: October 07, 2010
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Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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xoo00oox
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010
Posts: 2672
Location: East Nassau, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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Thanks. I'm really looking forward to driving this thing! It's nice to have the extra few inches to work above the engine in this van. I'm curious to see if there will be many interested in having this done with their Bay, those aircooled engines are getting very expensive and harder to source good parts now.
Wait to you see what I've got planned for the heat in this thing.
Andrew- |
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Yondermtn
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2007
Posts: 609
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Can the 1.8t run backward? |
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Very cool 
With the cost of the Type IV and questionable reliability of parts this makes me feel a little better about my long term plans for my '77.
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1977 Westfalia 2.0FI 4spd
1990 Multivan 2.1 Auto |
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All4You
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Posts: 146
Location: NY
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Awesome! I want a ride!