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D Clymer
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Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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 Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Mundopacheco wrote: |
| D Clymer wrote: |
....... the dual piston G60 calipers that were marginal on these cars from 1986 to 1993. |
If these calipers were marginal on the vehicles mentioned, wouldn't it be more so on a Vanagon?
Thanks,
Miguel |
They are decent for a Vanagon, but definitely not the ultimate. Vanagons don't get driven at the speeds of a high performance Audi or cornered as hard.
The G60 brakes actually have an interesting history. Audi first used them on the 1986 5000 Turbo Quattro and then subsequently on the front drive turbo version too. These cars had only 160hp (a lot for 1986) and the brakes were sufficient for these. But then in 1990 Audi came out with the Audi V8 and the 200 Quattro 20V. These cars had 250hp and 220hp respectively. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and 152 mph top speeds on both of them along with curb weights approaching 4000 lbs. Audi developed an upgraded brake for these cars - the "UFO brake" which had the calipers on the inside of a very interesting looking rotor rather than on the outside. The brakes had a huge swept area, but didn't cool very well due to restricted airflow. So for US cars they had no choice but to retrofit the smaller G60 setup to these cars. That's when the BIRA group was established by frustrated Audi turbo owners and Porsche Big Reds and huge rotors became a retrofit system.
Anyway, history lesson aside, the G60s are fine for a Vanagon, but they are definitely not amazing.
David |
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greenraVR6
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Joined: January 19, 2011
Posts: 306
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:17 am Post subject: |
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Seems like for the $$ the best option out there is to upgrade the fronts using the Audi parts. I did a quick google search and found a thread where a guy did the conversion using all brand new parts including the caliper carriers for just over $300  As stated before, this is for a syncro so the cost will be a little more to convert 2wd vans over to syncro hubs.
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Steve Arndt
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Joined: August 01, 2005
Posts: 1779
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| greenraVR6 wrote: |
| Seems like for the $$ the best option out there is to upgrade the fronts using the Audi parts. I did a quick google search and found a thread where a guy did the conversion using all brand new parts including the caliper carriers for just over $300 As stated before, this is for a syncro so the cost will be a little more to convert 2wd vans over to syncro hubs. |
Post the link or the info. |
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Altoona
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Joined: November 14, 2011
Posts: 504
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| greenraVR6 wrote: |
| Seems like for the $$ the best option out there is to upgrade the fronts using the Audi parts. I did a quick google search and found a thread where a guy did the conversion using all brand new parts including the caliper carriers for just over $300 As stated before, this is for a syncro so the cost will be a little more to convert 2wd vans over to syncro hubs. |
This is a good option if you have the skills to design and fabricate an adaptor. |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17100
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| this is for a syncro so the cost will be a little more to convert 2wd vans over to syncro hubs. |
I am confused as well even reading the GW catalog. I understand there are differences in the 2WD front hubs/brakes early and late, but how can you fit a syncro front hub to a 2wd vanagon? Wouldn't you need a bearing housing/upright and an outer cv joint to hold the hub and bearing tight in the housing? In other words it is a completely different design. markw
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Phishman068
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Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 1867
Location: Pittsburgh PA (ish)
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kamzcab86
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Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7915
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Phishman068 wrote: |
| It's not a syncro hub they use. It's either a SA hub (as the SA 2wds used separate hubs from the rotors, similar to the syncro style) or a 2wd rotor where the rotor is cut off (leaving just a hub). |
I'd put my money on the 2WD hubs being SA, since GW is no longer offering the SA kit: http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23341&category_id=71&category_parent_id= . If you want the "big brake kit" they offer, you'll now be buying GoWesty's new in-house stuff + the SA hubs, if you need them. If you have an early van, you'll also need the later vans' spindles.
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r39o
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Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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I think we all can agree a nice new package in the box is a good thing.
Later on when you need parts that is a different story.
These days, single source wear items scare me.
You NEVER know when an established company goes xxxx up and then what do you do?
I am sure the collective wisdom will find out what the parts really are.
I am sure it is just a custom cast / machined carrier.
Calipers, rotors and pads are likely some generic (witness the many holed rotor.)
That custom carrier is the adapter portion of other setups.
Recall to make a G60 carrier work for a syncro you machine (drill) the carrier and add a spacer.
Same idea when using G60s on a 2wd, except the adaption is a bit more complex.
Others use big reds from Porsches, too, recall and they use an adapter too.
Heck, come to think about it, wasn't there some Toyota parts you could easily adapt too? I forget....some one go look.
You gonna have to expect to pay between $300 to $800 depending on what you choose and how you go about implementing you big brakes.
There are several choices, several threads here, and the GW one is just a new offering.
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greenraVR6
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Joined: January 19, 2011
Posts: 306
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Arndt wrote: |
| greenraVR6 wrote: |
| Seems like for the $$ the best option out there is to upgrade the fronts using the Audi parts. I did a quick google search and found a thread where a guy did the conversion using all brand new parts including the caliper carriers for just over $300 As stated before, this is for a syncro so the cost will be a little more to convert 2wd vans over to syncro hubs. |
Post the link or the info. |
http://www.vwrx.com/forum/index.php?topic=173.0
very nice step by step writeup, and looks like the guy lives in the same small town I do (not too much of a surprise, I can't leave the house without seeing a handful of vangons driving around 
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BillM
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Location: Stonington,CT
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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I think they changed the pictures. If you look the rotor is different
its not the one with multiple holes on the face of the hub.
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Since I am a fan of displacement when talking engines....pistons are what I look for in brakes.
IMHO, just the fact that G60s are duals and this new offering from GW is a single piston, leads me in my thought that these "new" parts will stop with less of the stopping power of the duals.
And if one agrees with David, that the G60s are "decent" when used on a Vanagon....I can only imagine what the "new" parts stop like.
FYI, all my converted vans have Girling 60s upfront, most have Audi rear disc, BMW master and booster, custom lines and one has adjustability via a brake bias control.
Yup, fancy plumbing.
Putting money into brakes and the braking system has always been a no brainer for me.
Want the best brakes possible for the Vanagon???
Wilwood quad piston calipers are available and will work with larger rotors than any of the parts listed in this thread.
The calipers retail for over $1500 each....as do brand new Big Reds. |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| BillM wrote: |
I think they changed the pictures. If you look the rotor is different
its not the one with multiple holes on the face of the hub. |
They Photoshopped all of the pictures that show the lug holes. If you load the photo into Photoshop and zoom in, you can clearly see this. So now it makes me wonder if this was just a quick fix to having loaded the incorrect images onto their website or if they are trying to cover up the fact that the rotors are from another vehicle and proprietary as they claim. No big deal either way, but the whole thing feels a bit misleading to me.
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ALIKA T3
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Joined: July 30, 2009
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Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| Phishman068 wrote: |
| It's not a syncro hub they use. It's either a SA hub (as the SA 2wds used separate hubs from the rotors, similar to the syncro style) or a 2wd rotor where the rotor is cut off (leaving just a hub). |
I'd put my money on the 2WD hubs being SA, since GW is no longer offering the SA kit: http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23341&category_id=71&category_parent_id= . If you want the "big brake kit" they offer, you'll now be buying GoWesty's new in-house stuff + the SA hubs, if you need them. If you have an early van, you'll also need the later vans' spindles. |
I'm pretty sur you can keep early spindles and just put an early style outer bearing in the hub.
Also as far as caliper carriers, the early models were drilled through and the spindle was taped,and later it was the spindle drilled through and carriers taped if I recall correctly.Not a big deal to go around 
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
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kamzcab86
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Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7915
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ALIKA T3 wrote: |
I'm pretty sur you can keep early spindles and just put an early style outer bearing in the hub.
Also as far as caliper carriers, the early models were drilled through and the spindle was taped,and later it was the spindle drilled through and carriers taped if I recall correctly.Not a big deal to go around |
I merely repeated GoWesty's words.
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1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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photogdave
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I have confirmation from GW that the rotors are custom made for the kit but the pads are off-the-shelf parts.
They say all the parts will be available separately and they will support the kit indefinetely and I'm inclined to believe it.
I'm not worried they will be out of business when I need new rotors!
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Phishman068
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photogdave
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Phishman068 wrote: |
Even if they are willing to support them "forever"....why?
They're not much cheaper than a known setup (some would say better setup) of available parts with adaptors from a vendor.
Unless the smallcar kit isn't G60s as I think it to be.... |
Smallcar won't work with my 15" Mefros - I asked.
The VC kit is going up to $750 and will require some modifications to work with my Mefros - I asked.
I don't have the equipment or skills to build my own kit.
So $500 is starting to sound pretty good...
(Maybe I shouldn't have bought Mefros!) 
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Last edited by photogdave on Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hdenter
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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GW talks about the extra weight and that the disk is 3mm thicker, but no mention of "vented" disk.
Hans
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Christopher Schimke
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| photogdave wrote: |
I have confirmation from GW that the rotors are custom made for the kit but the pads are off-the-shelf parts.
They say all the parts will be available separately and they will support the kit indefinetely and I'm inclined to believe it.
I'm not worried they will be out of business when I need new rotors! |
I don't doubt that they are custom for their kit, but I would put money on the fact that they are off-the-shelf rotors that have been redrilled (and possibly enlarged centerbores) to fit the hub. When the original photos were posted, five of the lug holes were clean holes with chamfered corners while the other five were more crudely drilled with no chamfer. The original photos also showed two auxiliary mounting holes for screwing the rotor to the hub which don't correspond to any holes in the hub.
Again, I don't really care about any of this because it doesn't have much to do with the performance of the kit, but it's misleading to imply that the kit was completely designed and built by some major brake manufacturer when in fact it is no different than any of the other kits on the market in the sense that existing parts have been mixed and modified with a few custom parts thrown in to work on the Vanagon.
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Altoona
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| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| hdenter wrote: |
GW talks about the extra weight and that the disk is 3mm thicker, but no mention of "vented" disk.
Hans |
Did you look at the pictures? They are vented. |
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