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Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS
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khughes
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

Indeed the C-code ECU should have a 4-wire O2 sensor, and the A-code - except for the earliest ones - had an O2 as well, although their closed loop mode is very primitive and known to lock up and stop functioning too.

As Jon was quoted, the fuel economy will be better using the WBX injectors with anything but the E-code ECUs. My A-code *did* idle better and seemed smoother with the A-2 injectors, but I picked up a couple MPG and more low end power when I upgraded to the E-code. Yeah, it's pricey, but if you plan on keeping a Tiico long term, its well worth it *IMO* to do the E-code upgrade - for the mileage and performance AND to ensure you're running the correct AFR. Nothing like a sucked exhaust valve or a ventilated piston to ruin your whole day...

I'm now running the FAS GenV, with a turbo, and it's all grin-city for me Very Happy

Disclaimer - I do consider Jon a personal friend, but I have no dog in this fight, financially or otherwise, so my opinions are strictly my own.
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metropoj
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:28 am    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

llilibel03 wrote:
Paulbeard wrote:
llilibel03 wrote:
Was it worth it going from A to E edu? They're $400.

I have the A. Car runs fine, but only gets 16mpg. I'm in the process of trying to get my O2 sensor out. I've been "blasting" it every day now for almost a week after last weekend's failed attempt to get it out. Online research says to use a torch. If it gets to that I'll bring it to my mechanic.


The A code ECU doesn't use the O2 sensor, so far as I know. Unless you plan to upgrade to the E, you're not going to get anything for your trouble, if that's the case. FYI, I got 16 mpg with the new ECU and no O2 sensor, 22 mpg (highway) once I got it connected.

I think it was an improvement, as I documented along the way. Better gas mileage, better performance and whatever other improvements they made.

My O2 sensor came out after a good hot drive and generous dousing in PBlaster. Not sure a torch can get those threads any hotter.


Why would my car have the O2 then? The PO that did the conversion was a JPL engineer. I can't imagine him adding something that had no purpose. It's a 3 wire. I also have the A2 rail. I posted a pic of it (OXS) on the Yahoo group and Keith said he'd never seen one like it. I wanted to get it out and replace it with an identical part.

Eventually I will get the E. Maybe I should run with no (working) O2 until I'm ready to purchase the E? Not waste the $40 for the OXS?

ALso, wouldn't blasting the O2 when the tail pipe is that hot just instantly vaporize the blaster?




You probably already found out but it is supposed to have a O2 sensor. In fact, a 4 wire O2 sensor IIRC so sounds like it was hacked in.

Keep in mind that just because an engineer touched something doesn't mean it is instant gold Smile .... I know several who are oblivious to this kind of stuff and several more who are absolute wizards.

Keith is a good egg on the Yahoo group, very immersed in all thing TiiCo and has been very willing to help us out.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:19 am    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

82westyrabbit wrote:
My computer is a c code with a o2 sensor and a2 fuel rail and injectors.


You should not be using the A2 injectors with a C code. I'll quote Jon on this :

"Second Generation ECU's part #RSU 906 258B or C:


They are a primitive "closed loop" system using a 4-wire 02 sensor with the data wire going to pin #38
They were designed using the water boxer injector and a mild performance cam of 268 instead of a 264** Bosch never discussed this with Remtec or Peter B. ahead of time and as a result it took us here almost a year to figure out what was going on with this system and its peculiar glitches. The mild cam was not that big of a deal except at idle until the engines broke in… but the water boxer injector was! PeterB. asked them to use the A2 injector #037 906 031AK that fits Digifant Golf's and Jetta's in North America. They are more reasonably priced and have flow characteristics more consistent with the cylinder volume of an in-line engine. For whatever reason they didn't. They also forgot to check all the appropriate boxes while formatting to shut off erroneous codes such as "glow plug monitoring" etc., and as a result they throw more codes than the earlier systems!!
These ECU's learn on their own and do not need to be adjusted at altitude
Ignition timing on these is to be set @ 6 degrees BTDC using the proper basic setting procedure.
In summary if you have ECU #RSU 906 258 B or C make sure you are using waterboxer injectors…your system will run much better. And make sure the timing is set @ 6 BTDC. If you have this system and have already upgraded to the A2 fuel rail set-up…you'll need to update your ECU as well.

"


I hate to see you give up on this if you are not matching the right parts as designed and proper VCDS configurations.

I guess the biggest problem with CIS these days is getting good running parts Smile I like CIS though.

Now IIRC, CIS Injectors go into the head, yes ? The TiiCo injectors go into the intake manifold so that will be your first challenge. probably need the head as well.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

llilibel03 wrote:


Why would my car have the O2 then? The PO that did the conversion was a JPL engineer. I can't imagine him adding something that had no purpose. It's a 3 wire. I also have the A2 rail. I posted a pic of it (OXS) on the Yahoo group and Keith said he'd never seen one like it. I wanted to get it out and replace it with an identical part.

Maybe it's one of the later ones where the O2 sensor was factored in…
llilibel03 wrote:

Eventually I will get the E. Maybe I should run with no (working) O2 until I'm ready to purchase the E? Not waste the $40 for the OXS?


I expect that doesn't do much for your mpg, if my experience is any guide.

llilibel03 wrote:

ALso, wouldn't blasting the O2 when the tail pipe is that hot just instantly vaporize the blaster?


¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It worked for me™ Maybe soak it first then drive. I expect I waited a few minutes before soaking it, for the reason you mention, but I know the heat of a drive was crucial.
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llilibel03
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

Paulbeard wrote:
llilibel03 wrote:
Was it worth it going from A to E edu? They're $400.

I have the A. Car runs fine, but only gets 16mpg. I'm in the process of trying to get my O2 sensor out. I've been "blasting" it every day now for almost a week after last weekend's failed attempt to get it out. Online research says to use a torch. If it gets to that I'll bring it to my mechanic.


The A code ECU doesn't use the O2 sensor, so far as I know. Unless you plan to upgrade to the E, you're not going to get anything for your trouble, if that's the case. FYI, I got 16 mpg with the new ECU and no O2 sensor, 22 mpg (highway) once I got it connected.

I think it was an improvement, as I documented along the way. Better gas mileage, better performance and whatever other improvements they made.

My O2 sensor came out after a good hot drive and generous dousing in PBlaster. Not sure a torch can get those threads any hotter.


Why would my car have the O2 then? The PO that did the conversion was a JPL engineer. I can't imagine him adding something that had no purpose. It's a 3 wire. I also have the A2 rail. I posted a pic of it (OXS) on the Yahoo group and Keith said he'd never seen one like it. I wanted to get it out and replace it with an identical part.

Eventually I will get the E. Maybe I should run with no (working) O2 until I'm ready to purchase the E? Not waste the $40 for the OXS?

ALso, wouldn't blasting the O2 when the tail pipe is that hot just instantly vaporize the blaster?
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:55 am    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

Yes a E code computer would be plug and play in my van. I was trying to set up the computer when the Ross tec software I was using crashed. I will get it set up when it gets to my friends alignment shop. He has a vag 1552 to set it up. I have put a ton of money in this thing this winter and upgrading the computer is not on the top of my list. I certainly will do that if I am not satisfied with how it runs when it’s on the road next week
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

82westyrabbit wrote:
My computer is a c code with a o2 sensor and a2 fuel rail and injectors. I have not driven like this yet as I am waiting to get it to a alignment shop. I always got 20 miles per gallon with Bosch cis fuel injection. If you see a thread on converting from the TIICO fuel injection to Bosch CIS in a few months, then you will know I didn’t like it. I will be pretty disappointed if I don’t get as good fuel mileage as I did with my old fuel injection.


No idea how much hassle/expense that would be but it might be worth asking the folks at FAS if the E code would be worth a try. You already have the A2 rail and injectors…could be a plug and play swap
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

If you have a ac compressor working or not the belt runs around the compressor then the water pump the then alternator then the belt tensioner. If you remove the compressor then you need a water pump pully with groves instead of smooth. Obviously you need the mk3 crank pully as well. My engine sits 2 inches higher than normal because I am running 82 diesel carrier bars and transmission mount with no spacers. So I had to modify my alternator bracket to lower the alternator to fit under the deck lid. This would be a big deal with out the ability to wield aluminum and a milling machine. My computer is a c code with a o2 sensor and a2 fuel rail and injectors. I have not driven like this yet as I am waiting to get it to a alignment shop. I always got 20 miles per gallon with Bosch cis fuel injection. If you see a thread on converting from the TIICO fuel injection to Bosch CIS in a few months, then you will know I didn’t like it. I will be pretty disappointed if I don’t get as good fuel mileage as I did with my old fuel injection.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

metropoj wrote:
Paulbeard wrote:
The A code ECU doesn't use the O2 sensor, so far as I know.


The A Codes got a sensor after all the problems that were experienced the first cold spell in North America.. My A code had one, 3 wire. This was only a tip of the issues with the A Code ECU however ...



Mine was snipped off, leaving just a pigtail, so I assumed the ECU didn't accomodate. I figured after 17 years of lack of use, I may as well replace it when I upgraded to the new ECU.

I suppose replacing a suspect O2 sensor and then driving with/without it connected would be a good test of whether the ECU groks it.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

Paulbeard wrote:
The A code ECU doesn't use the O2 sensor, so far as I know.


The A Codes got a sensor after all the problems that were experienced the first cold spell in North America.. My A code had one, 3 wire. This was only a tip of the issues with the A Code ECU however ...

Here is an Excerpt from Jon at FAS about O2 sensor ...

"We had him send us an ECU pin out for the system. All similar VW Bosch operating systems that run Motronic, Mono-Motronic etc. had their data wire going into the ECU on pin #38. So we added a 3 wire 02 sensor and ran a shielded Data wire into pin#38. Immediately, the system reacted as it would in closed loop! The vans started right up cold, the idle hunted a little but not much worse than any Golf , Jetta and they were not belching black smoke and they now ran decent at 25 degrees Fahrenheit. We observed at start-up cold the 02 sensor voltage remained constant at about .4 volts and then as the vehicle warmed up… even better it started to oscillate normally between .2 and .8 volts!! "

There is a thread on the Samba here somewhere with the TiiCo ECU story from beginnings to E code. It is a good read if you are not familiar with it.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

Much easier with the Serpentine setup and no belt wobble from all the TiiCo bits that were just never up to the task.

With the MK3 ( or A3 ) setup, there are a number of ways to get to the end result.

You can use MK3 stuff ( bracket (with all hardware !)Alt, P/S pump , crank pulley ). Use the VR6 water pump pulley to drive the standard water pump. Use the MK3 alternator and I can't comment on the A/C.

Because you have A/C you use the stock MK3 with A/C. There will be a tight fit under the decklid due to where the Alternator placement is. Some people remove a bit of the foam insulation.

Now, for those without A/C, there is a couple different mounting bracket options. The ABF engine used a different style of serpentine layout and I believe was a European solution.

There is another however for Non A/C people...

The Canadian MK3 came with a factory A/C delete bracket that pushes the alternator into a non interference position with the decklid.

I run one of these factory Delete A/C brackets with the FAS Billet Crank pulley and FAS billet water pump pulley. I use the MK3 power steering pump with the Vanagon hoses.

Check out my TiiCo install build on the site here for more pics and details on how it all fits together.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

82westyrabbit wrote:
It’s easier. The serpentine belt and alternator are from a mk3 golf or Jetta. My van has no ac or power steering so I need a custom water pump pully from FAS. If you have ac and or power steering then you just use the stock MK3 stuff. It gets you a higher amp alternator as well.


I do have (currently non-op) A/C and PS…so I need new pulleys for those as well? Or am I replacing those with the MK3 stuff? I'm not sure I am understanding.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

It’s easier. The serpentine belt and alternator are from a mk3 golf or Jetta. My van has no ac or power steering so I need a custom water pump pully from FAS. If you have ac and or power steering then you just use the stock MK3 stuff. It gets you a higher amp alternator as well.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

metropoj wrote:
I also switched to the A3 Serpentine belt system.



What can you say about this? Curious about what it entails (new pulleys and tensioner?)? How does it affect parts availability? How hard is to fit a FLAPS water pump or alternator in West Nowhere with that belt system?
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

llilibel03 wrote:
Was it worth it going from A to E edu? They're $400.

I have the A. Car runs fine, but only gets 16mpg. I'm in the process of trying to get my O2 sensor out. I've been "blasting" it every day now for almost a week after last weekend's failed attempt to get it out. Online research says to use a torch. If it gets to that I'll bring it to my mechanic.


The A code ECU doesn't use the O2 sensor, so far as I know. Unless you plan to upgrade to the E, you're not going to get anything for your trouble, if that's the case. FYI, I got 16 mpg with the new ECU and no O2 sensor, 22 mpg (highway) once I got it connected.

I think it was an improvement, as I documented along the way. Better gas mileage, better performance and whatever other improvements they made.

My O2 sensor came out after a good hot drive and generous dousing in PBlaster. Not sure a torch can get those threads any hotter.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

Good Evening,

John, thanks for the set-up information, I appreciate it!
It looks to be fairly straight forward.
On this particular engine, the timing had apparently been set way too far advanced in order to make it run. So it will need much more diagnosis.

It would be nice to have a listing for all the values that show up in function 08, measuring value blocks. I am very familiar with that type of data having done considerable research for an OBD1 publication some years ago.

I'll try a to join that Yahoo group again. I could not get the captcha thing to respond. I'm just a low tech kind of guy living in a high tech world.

Regards,
Art LeBrun
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

To me, with a brand new factory crate motor, it was totally worth the E code with all the issues that the A code had.

I had planned to keep this set up a long time. Lots will say their A code is running just fine as-is.

Things like running lean ( and hot ) and blowing up motors and cracking headers, ECU locking out the cobbled O2 sensor inputs, and other things I can't even do justice based on memory.

But it is not just 400, you need the A2 injectors and fuel rail, proper 4 wire O2 sensor, mod your harness for the O2 sensor and other bits if you don't have them. I also switched to the A3 Serpentine belt system.

It is not cheap but also not that expensive in the grander scheme of all the other things I've done to the van.

Without a good running motor, all I have is an oversized lawn ornament.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

Was it worth it going from A to E edu? They're $400.

I have the A. Car runs fine, but only gets 16mpg. I'm in the process of trying to get my O2 sensor out. I've been "blasting" it every day now for almost a week after last weekend's failed attempt to get it out. Online research says to use a torch. If it gets to that I'll bring it to my mechanic.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

Yeah, I also suggest to come over to the Yahoo group for this info.

There are many with TiiCo A code experience well before FAS straightened everything out with the original kit.

I believe A code was 10deg BTDC.

There are also several wiring diagrams, shop manuals and piles of other great stuff in the files and photos sections.

Keith H and many others have been my saviors in cutting through the mud of the TiiCo saga.

I have the newer 6 degree BTDC timing instructions for the E code but I can't say it'll be correct for an A code. However, here is what I have for setting up an E code and corresponding parts:


RSU 906 258 E BOSCH MP 9.0 ECU

2LR 14 VW VANAGON ENGINE CONVERSION

ECU Set Up Instructions & Timing Procedure

The RSU 906 258E MUST BE run with the following components:

FUEL RAIL: 037 133 317 B PRESSURE REGULATOR: 0 280 160 235
INJECTOR: 037 906 031AK or 037 906 031 R (VW Dealer tut. need grooves for clips machined)
02 SENSOR: (VW# 021 906 265 AQ. OR BOSCH# 15160)


ECU Set Up Instructions:

With engine below 70* Celsius, put key in the on position (w/ out starting the engine).

Go to Group 2 Fault Codes and right them down for reference and then erase the codes (Group 5)

Go to Group 4 Channel 1 (or 01 based on your scan tool). You will hear an audible clicking sound as the throttle body set-up takes place.

After about 30 seconds, shut the key off, then wait a few seconds and recycle the key...this time start the engine. Immediately go to Group 4 Channel 1 again and allow vehicle to idle for a few minutes...this will set your idle adaptation.

After 5 minutes of running at idle, go to Channel 8 Group 1 and you will be able to view the same items as you did in Group 4 Basic Settings

Once the vehicle has warmed up to 70* Celsius you can now set timing
Timing Procedure

There were many previous Tiico (2LR) engines with the timing 1 cam tooth off relative to the crank. Therefore it would be wise to verify the crank is at TDC with the cam notch lined up to the mating surface of the head and valve cover (you only have to remove the upper timing cover) and set the rotor to the notch on the distributor.

Let the engine warm up and set the computer to Group 4 Channel l...the ECU should raise the idle to about 1450 RPM’s

Set your digital timing light to 6 degrees BTDC, loosen the distributor bolt and align the crank shaft pulley mark with the arrow on the timing cover

Go back to group 8 Channel 1 and your idle should resume...Exit out

-ALWAYS RUN A MINIMUM OF 91 OCTANE FUEL-
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Info on Tiico ECU's from FAS Reply with quote

I down loaded that information from the Tiico Yahoo group
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