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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject: Can't shift into gear |
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Alright, little background first.
Bought a Superstreet Plus transmission from KCR, great service and awesome transmission!
A couple of years after I had it installed, one night, while shifting from 1st to 2nd it felt like my clutch cable broke and I wasn't able to shift into 2nd. I rev-matched it a couple of miles to get home. Next day I pull the clutch cable out and it looks perfectly fine! I put a new one in there just in case but same problem. I made it as tight as I could, and if I put the pedal all the way to the floor it would (barely) let me shift.
Anyway, when I rebuilt my engine I put a new throwout bearing, new pressure plate and new clutch disc.
I'm still having the same problem. I checked the fork when the engine was out and it looked fine. The clutch cable tube also looks fine, I checked from the rear inspection plate as well as from a trap I have just behind the parking brake handle on the driver's side from a previous clutch cable tube repair, and there is a little tiny bit of side movement when the clutch pedal is depressed but really a tiny little bit. I also remove the clutch pedal shaft with hook and replaced it with one that has the bolt on part for the clutch cable at the same time the engine was rebuilt. The bowden tube had a bunch of extra spacers on the rear part/bracket, I tried removing them but still no change. I have the nut tightened as far as humanly possible and it still won't let me shift with the engine running (shifts fine with engine off).
I have it on jackstands right now and if I start the engine in neutral, the wheels don't move, if I press the pedal all the way and barely move the shifter towards first gear the wheels start to move.
What else could it be that would cause that?
Cliff notes:
* Can't shift in gear with engine running
* Happened suddenly while pressing clutch pedal to shift from 1st to 2nd
* New clutch disc
* New pressure plate
* New throwout bearing
* New clutch pedal shaft
* New clutch cable
* Clutch cable tube barely moves when pedal is depressed
* Tried bowden tube with and without extra spacers
* Shift fork looked fine
* Will shift in gear if I really force it
Any help is greatly appreciated _________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
www.gareymartin.com
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65ghia Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2001 Posts: 224 Location: Hayward ,CA
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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I had a similar issue. Pull brake boot cover and operate clutch and see if the clutch tube moves up and down. Here is what it took to get my ghia back on the street.
I had a series of issues all at once.
1.Replaced clutch cable and set correct free play.
2. My clutch tube broke. Welded brackets to fix.
After those 2 move to the next level.
3. Double check shift coupler. Does the car make it into 3-4 and reverse. If it grinds in reverse. U have the same problem as me . My Kennedy pressure plate stack height was to low.
4. Pull engine inspect throw out. Also inspect gland nut. And pressure plate.
I took a day off work pulled the engine. Inspected the pressure plate and compared to a new one. The finger of the pressure plate were compressed to far.
So what I did was replaced the gland nut, and put in a new pressure plate, and finally added 6 .060 " Washers between the pressure plate and the newly reground flywheel to increase my pressure plate stack height.
Then I put it all back together and still had problems with 1-2but I could now get reverse.
Reverse is just a farther throw than 1-2. So if u get reverse to work the. It's a shift plate rear coupler. Once I replaced the rear coupler after all this . Car shifts perfect. Ghia is now back on the street.
Hope this helps |
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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65ghia wrote: |
I had a similar issue. Pull brake boot cover and operate clutch and see if the clutch tube moves up and down. Here is what it took to get my ghia back on the street.
I had a series of issues all at once.
1.Replaced clutch cable and set correct free play.
2. My clutch tube broke. Welded brackets to fix.
After those 2 move to the next level.
3. Double check shift coupler. Does the car make it into 3-4 and reverse. If it grinds in reverse. U have the same problem as me . My Kennedy pressure plate stack height was to low.
4. Pull engine inspect throw out. Also inspect gland nut. And pressure plate.
I took a day off work pulled the engine. Inspected the pressure plate and compared to a new one. The finger of the pressure plate were compressed to far.
So what I did was replaced the gland nut, and put in a new pressure plate, and finally added 6 .060 " Washers between the pressure plate and the newly reground flywheel to increase my pressure plate stack height.
Then I put it all back together and still had problems with 1-2but I could now get reverse.
Reverse is just a farther throw than 1-2. So if u get reverse to work the. It's a shift plate rear coupler. Once I replaced the rear coupler after all this . Car shifts perfect. Ghia is now back on the street.
Hope this helps |
I have a trap right behind the e-brake on the driver's side, I opened it and looked at the clutch cable tube there is a tiny bit of movement but really nothing that seems abnormal.
With the engine off I can make it in all the gears, once the engine is running, I have a really hard time getting in 1st and reverse and I have to rev-match as I shift.
I checked the shift coupler (replaced the bushings not long ago) and it looks good, also the front shift rod bushing is newer and looks good.
Throwout is brand new as well as the pressure plate yet it does the same thing as it did with the old parts.
However, I did not replace the gland nut, could that be where my problem is?
I have the cable as tight as possible right now yet even with the pedal all the way down I can't engage a gear with the engine running, HOWEVER, I did notice this:
If I am driving, let's say in 4th gear, I load the engine but doing a nice smooth acceleration, I only have the move the clutch pedal about 3/4"-1" for the engine to rev up (clutch disengaging).
So it seems that even though the clutch is disengaged, the transmission shaft is still turning enough to not let me put it in gear, now at the point with pedal depressed (and I'm not very familiar with how it all works sorry) the only thing I can think off is that at that point the trans shaft is in the gland nut and if the bearing is bad, the shaft still spins with the flywheel/engine .... is this correct? So a bad gland nut could be causing this?
I wonder if it could also be causing the noise I am experiencing in the engine. _________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
www.gareymartin.com
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VWNut_69 Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2012 Posts: 203 Location: Boise, ID
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Check the clustch pedal for cracks or seperating where the shaft goes through the tube "under" the clutch pedal. If the welds break or just starts breaking you lose some of throw. I had this happen on mine and went through some of the same things you did, mine seperated underneath where you cant see unless it is removed and somehow I didn't notice it while replacing the shaft with clutch hook.
Another possibility would be the input shaft of the trans binding in the gland nut bearing like you mentioned.
The bearing can make a high pitch squeel noise when disengaging the clutch, is this what you hear? If you replace the gland nut lube the bearing with distributor points grease, it is non melting.
Mike |
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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I forgot to mention I completely rebuilt the pedal assembly while I had the engine out, did not notice any cracks or broken welds (metal pieces were dipped and then powder coated).
I'm guessing it's a bad gland nut bearing ...... looks like the engine is coming back out! _________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
www.gareymartin.com
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VWNut_69 Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2012 Posts: 203 Location: Boise, ID
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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The clutch pedal play is good?
Sometimes people stack the washers on the bowden tube to give it more arc, can help with pedal pressure and throw. Maybe put a couple back in?
Is the bowden tube old? It may be weak and straightening out too much when you push the pedal.
With the car up and secure with stands have someone push on the pedal while you watch the tube.
Mike |
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, I adjusted to normal play and it didn't work, tightened it all the way as tight as I could still won't work, not much play in the bowden tube with or without the spacers. Without the spacers/washers it bows about 1" or so, with the spacers around 2"-2.5" _________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
www.gareymartin.com
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SRP1 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007 Posts: 4340
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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A short time ago Kennedy had a bad run of pressure plates that had the exact problem your describing to the "T"
Press the pedal and the trans would not disengage no matter how far you shoved the pedal to the floor or how tight you made the cable to move the pressure plate. One sure fire way to check (if the cable tube is not broken free) is to run the play to 0, then put the car into gear and try to crank the engine. If the car lunges forward, or the starter seems like it's dragging and anchor while trying to start the engine, then you most likely have one of the bad pressure plates.
Again if all else is correct like throw out bearing, collar/no collar depending on year, clutch tube, cable, etc. It sounds to me by your description that you might have gotten a hold of one of these defective pressure plates. |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003 Posts: 4863 Location: Harmony, PA
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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When you rebuilt your engine, did you replace the gland nut? I have seen gland nuts that have the input shaft bearing not properly sunk into the gland nut far enough, and when the engine is installed, it puts pressure on the input shaft so that the engine never fully disengages from the tranny. |
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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SRP1 wrote: |
A short time ago Kennedy had a bad run of pressure plates that had the exact problem your describing to the "T"
Press the pedal and the trans would not disengage no matter how far you shoved the pedal to the floor or how tight you made the cable to move the pressure plate. One sure fire way to check (if the cable tube is not broken free) is to run the play to 0, then put the car into gear and try to crank the engine. If the car lunges forward, or the starter seems like it's dragging and anchor while trying to start the engine, then you most likely have one of the bad pressure plates.
Again if all else is correct like throw out bearing, collar/no collar depending on year, clutch tube, cable, etc. It sounds to me by your description that you might have gotten a hold of one of these defective pressure plates. |
It did this with the old Kennedy pressure plate I had bought new in 2006, could I have gotten 2 bad ones 7 years apart (wouldn't be surprised with my luck lol).
If I put it in gear and push the clutch pedal down and then try to start the car it starts and does not lunge forward, and I have to release the pedal almost all the way back out to engage the clutch again which makes no sense lol.
There is a collar bolted to the transmission, no collar on pressure plate and the throwout bearing is the style with built in clips, that's all correct right?
The weird thing is it was fine for a long time, and then suddenly started doing that (it literally felt like the clutch cable broke/snapped when I was pushing the pedal down).
[email protected] wrote: |
When you rebuilt your engine, did you replace the gland nut? I have seen gland nuts that have the input shaft bearing not properly sunk into the gland nut far enough, and when the engine is installed, it puts pressure on the input shaft so that the engine never fully disengages from the tranny. |
I did not replace the gland nut no, but like I said above it worked fine at first and then this started.
I pulled the engine out (again) and looked at the HD shift fork looks fine, throwout bearing looks fine, the gland nut as far as I can tell looks fine I don't really know how to check it though, and the transmission shaft has a little bit of metal shavings on it, also, is it normal that if I grab it I can move it up and down and side to side (more up and down than side to side)? _________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
www.gareymartin.com
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:23 am Post subject: |
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alright so turns out my Gene Berg gland nut is a Scat one ...... not surprised at this point considering how much other stuff were not what they were supposed to be on my old Chico engine ..... the bearing in the Scat gland nut is almost flush with the surface, looking at a stock one it's sunk in a lot more ...... so we put on a stock gland nut for now torqued to 300 ft.lb and red Loctite, let's see if that fixes it _________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
www.gareymartin.com
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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No go, new gland nut, still won't shift _________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
www.gareymartin.com
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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65ghia wrote: |
So what I did was replaced the gland nut, and put in a new pressure plate, and finally added 6 .060 " Washers between the pressure plate and the newly reground flywheel to increase my pressure plate stack height. |
I think I'm going to have to put spacers in, did you buy specific ones or did you just put washers in there? _________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
www.gareymartin.com
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think this looks right, does it?
I sent the (new!) pressure plate off to KEP today so they can fix it. _________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
www.gareymartin.com
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Alright got a call from Montee (KEP) today and he tested the pressure plate and said it's perfect no problems with it! Big thumbs up to them for the quick turnaround!
This is driving me nuts. I ended up taking the cross shaft off of the transmission and I cleaned it up and took a picture, is this worn out too much or should it still be good?
_________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
www.gareymartin.com
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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the other side looks less worn, you can still see the sharp angle. It looks like the bearing might be getting pushed slightly unevenly
_________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Is this mike on? ...... check _________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
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Slow 1200 Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004 Posts: 2103
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Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:06 am Post subject: |
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how's the bowden tube? I had one come apart internally |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4848 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Your crosshaft is wore but not to cause your problem, I would weld it tho or it will become a problem |
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71sbeetle Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 1334 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Slow 1200 wrote: |
how's the bowden tube? I had one come apart internally |
I checked it and it looked good inside and out, ended up replacing it anyway still didn't fix it
mcmscott wrote: |
Your crosshaft is wore but not to cause your problem, I would weld it tho or it will become a problem |
Thanks! I'm actually buying a new Bugpack HD one from AC.net today just to be sure.
If that's not the problem, what else should I look into? _________________ Alte Schule Vintage and Performance VW club
www.gareymartin.com
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