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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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 Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:39 pm Post subject: Thrill of the day - Broken caliper! |
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Have any of you guys ever seen this happen before? Part of the lip that retains the piston seal broke clean off which instantly resulted in no brakes. It looks like it has been cracked for a while and finally gave way (see how much cleaner the "new" metal is near the top versus the rustier metal near the bottom?). These are original to the van OE VW calipers too.
Luckily it gave up the ghost on a lonely stretch of country road. I was able to nurse it about 7 miles back home, but not without a few "pucker" moments.
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10251
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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In all my years I have never seen that. I have seen cracked rotors, pad material come off the pad, shattered rotors, melted piston seals, etc but never a cracked rotor. Seems like it would HAVE to come from someone prying on the lip to pull the piston before you, ya know?
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randywebb
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Joined: February 15, 2005
Posts: 3815
Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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what brand caliper?
age/mileage?
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tpinthepack
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Joined: July 11, 2004
Posts: 816
Location: clearwater,florida
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, scary and glad you made it home OK. I can see this happening if you had no pad material left on the pads, and the piston could be all the way out and then cantilever action would cause a flex scenario, but I never thought it would compromise the casting. Pretty amazing.
Tony
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TP in the Pack (I am a cyclist)
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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That's really a freak failure mode right there
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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You ever rebuild them?
Stuff happens.
The older the car gets the stranger the failures are.
Things like seat backs, suspension pieces, frame mounts and the like will fatigue and maybe, you just had a marginal part.
Now is a great time to upgrade!
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
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shadetreetim
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Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 1994
Location: Riverside, California
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yikes!  Glad you made it home okay. Just a reminder that anything can fail on these vehicles. And who knows what someone did 20 years ago that just now finally fails.
I already have the o-ring kits ready to go for my calipers during the next brake service. Now I want to take them apart and inspect them thoroughly sooner than that.
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Doing my best every time I drive it to dispel the myth these Vanagons have to be slow!
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10251
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Just thought of another damage source. When compressed air is used to blow a caliper piston out, I've seen them whang* across the shop usually followed by someone sheepishly apologizing as they go retrieve it. Never thought myself that it could have hidden cracks that fail a decade later.
* A term used for a violently dangerous object or hitting same with reckless abandonment that seems like a good idea at the time.
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Doug,
You know they pucks are junk after they get whanged, right?
We ALWAYS blow them into a rag on the bench.
Once I had one roll off the bench and it ended up being out of round just for a small fall.
Imagine the shape after whacking* the shop wall?
They are actually fragile precession parts.
Rant over......
*Whack a term used to describe.......
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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70coupyel
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Joined: September 06, 2006
Posts: 1657
Location: So.Cal
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Wow Chris glad you made it home safe. Really weird casting breakage.
Now maybe a quick test would to make to small metal "pucks" and cover the piston holes. Then make a jack screw to hold both of them in place while you hit it with some air. Might be able to see some air bubbles.
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| TheAndante wrote: |
| Saying that specs are different than dimensions doesn't make sense. Porsche specs/VW specs/engineering specs are nothing but a series of dimensions,sizes,percentages,measurements, etc. |
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=338946&highlight=
70 KG Coup
83 Westy Waterboxer |
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10251
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, agree they should not be treated that way. I have used a chunk of wood for 30 years which bears the scars like a list of various bores n thumps. I also have a specially shaped wood piece that I made specifically to Toyota factory manual specs for these front calipers. My pistons are treated royally!
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for being concerned about my well being. I'm just so thankful that it happened when and where it did and not in a situation where it could have gone horribly wrong.
| IdahoDoug wrote: |
| Seems like it would HAVE to come from someone prying on the lip to pull the piston before you, ya know? |
| randywebb wrote: |
what brand caliper?
age/mileage? |
Yeah, that about all I can figure too, but there is no record of the calipers (ATE) having been rebuilt by the previous owner (all service work was done by only a few different shops over the course of his ownership). I am the second owner of this van (which now has about 312,000 miles on it) and the first owner kept the most meticulous records that I have ever seen. He even kept receipts for light bulbs. I can't find any records of any caliper changes either, only pad and rotor changes. Therefore I have to assume that these calipers are the same ones that VW issued the van at the factory and that the failure is possibly just a result of fatigue. I suppose it could also be the result of a minor casting flaw (maybe an inclusion or void right on that lip?) that, with enough pressure and heat cycles, took nearly 30 years to rear its head. However, I wasn't along for the ride during all those years of previous ownership and anything could have happened along the line. I guess we will never really know for sure.
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"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Syncromikey
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Joined: September 19, 2012
Posts: 463
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Wow !!! Chris, It's really is good you made it home safe and sound. Hopefully that's a freak one time accident.
I've never heard of that happening before. Could be a whole number of reasons it let go. Lets hope it never happens to anyone else. Good reason to make sure the cables on the emergency brakes never seize with rust!
Cheers,
Mike
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Jake de Villiers
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Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Man, you're lucky you weren't bombing into the city on I-5...wow!
I've never seen or heard of a piston failure before. I had a vented rotor collapse on me years ago - rust weakened the webbing and the caliper crushed it flat! Scary moment as the pedal went to the floor but I was able to pump the pedal and stop the truck.
It does shake a person's faith in brakes, though.
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randywebb
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Joined: February 15, 2005
Posts: 3815
Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'll post on a sports car racing site & let you know if anyone there has info on this type failure
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xoo00oox
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010
Posts: 2672
Location: East Nassau, NY
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Glad there was no accident. Perhaps water/ slush got onto breaks and exspanded when it froze caused it to start? |
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srmpf
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Joined: February 25, 2011
Posts: 296
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| now that might be a very stupid question: but shouldn't the brake system a little bit more fail safe? I mean one broken caliper and ALL three remaining (or at least the drums in the back) stop working as well? |
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syncrodoka
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Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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We have dual circuit master cylinders. If there is a catastrophic failure at one end of the vehicle the braking system on the opposite end of the vehicle stays intact.
A properly working e-brake and compression braking from the motor works wonders as well.
Last edited by syncrodoka on Fri May 17, 2013 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Crankey
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Joined: July 11, 2004
Posts: 2659
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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that is a bit disturbing. are the calipers castings ? I wouldn't think a forging would crack like that.
I thought dual circuit breaks came along later in the air cooled era. looks like the hunt begins for another retrofit part.
glad you were in a spot that worked out ok Chris. man that must have scarred the crap out of you. |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| srmpf wrote: |
| now that might be a very stupid question: but shouldn't the brake system a little bit more fail safe? I mean one broken caliper and ALL three remaining (or at least the drums in the back) stop working as well? |
Yes, the dual circuit master cylinder separates the front and rear circuits so that if one end fails, the other end keeps working. However, have you ever tried to stop a 4000+ lb vehicle with marginal rear drums only? It's right up there with not having any brakes at all. In addition, I will admit that my rear brakes are not in the best of shape. Anticipating a rear brake change, I put off maintenance for far too long. That definitely contributed to the lack of braking ability once the front circuit was no longer in play.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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