No Crank Problem

[randywebb]

I have an intermittent no crank (no clicking, no grinding) condition on my 1986 Vanagon, which has persisted for years. I have done the following and each time thought it was fixed (but it wasn't):

- replaced the ignition switch
- replaced the auto trans. neutral safety switch
- rechecked the neutral safety switch alignment several times
- cleaned all the grounds
(I've also done a complete refurb on the fuel system, new throttle body, tuneup and etc. which do not affect a no crank, but should make the engine easier to start).

If I stop it and then restart it after 5 minutes (gas station) then it always seems to start fine. It also seems to start fine when cold (sitting overnight).

Yesterday, it stranded me on a back road in a National Forest (which can be pretty risky vs. the mere inconvenience of being disabled on a major hwy where you can call for help on a cell phone).

I had stopped for about 20 minutes to read a map, and then had the same old no crank.

I tried to short across the wires in the ignition switch to no avail, spent some quality time with the Bentley manual, peered at various connections, hit the starter and solenoid with a stick, etc.; nothing worked.
But, after about 2 hours it started just fine. So I drove home.

One thing I noticed - I put a volt meter on the cigarette lighter outlet on the dash, which read 12.5 V while sitting. But when I turned the key to start the voltage dropped momentarily to 11.5 V or so even tho there was no click from the solenoid, no grinding of the starter.

I am wondering if the fuel pump could pull the voltage down like that? or if the voltage drop means that current is flowing to the solenoid for sure but is jammed from being swollen by heat or something? Of course, if the heat did jam the solenoid somehow then why does that not happen if I stop for 5 minutes?
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1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.

[dhaavers]

http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=924

Looks like you're working through the list pretty well...
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>

[randywebb]

I went thru receipts from various PO's and the starter has only 31,000 miles on it after it was replaced in 2003.
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1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.

[dhaavers]

Starters run on duty cycles, not miles.
Get a new lifetime warranty unit from NAPA.
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>

[randywebb]

how many duty cycles were generated by a camper with 31k on it?

I think I'll have a shop pull it, look it over, and if it is a Bosch rebuild it
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1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.

[MarkWard]

[randywebb]

Thx - I did what I could while alone with a dead van on an isolated road...

I am going to have a shop check it out - tell me what you think about asking them to:

- install Jay's relay kit for hot start problems

- remove the starter; inspect/test and either remanf. it or install a new one - same for solenoid

- clean connections at starter

- is there any test a shop can do on the cable from the battery to the starter?
(other than a visual inspection - can they apply a load and measure amperage?)
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1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.

[MarkWard]

To be sure, I would remove the ground cable from the battery and clean with a wire brush both ends and be sure you have bare metal where the battery ground cable attaches to the body. I would then crawl under the van and remove the ground cable between the transmission and the body. I would clean both ends, replace it if it is corroded and clean where it attaches to the body and the transmission. In my experience, people seem to ignore the ground circuit when troubleshooting an electrical problem. One needs to remember that current flows in a "circle" and the ground is equally important to the power side of the circuit.

We own an 86 outboard boat. My back ground is automotive. For me, I'd rather throw parts at my outboard trying to fix an intermittent problem than pay a shop for some inexperienced kid to do the same thing. Electrical for some is easy, but I have seen more mechanics that really don't understand electrical systems than do. The majority are parts replacers it seems. With an automatic, I would not travel without a spare starter. Do what I recommend for the grounds and replace the starter with a known good one. Adding a relay adds a point of failure, but does compensate for 30 year old wiring. I would add one and a remote starter switch till you solve it completely. Good luck.
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[randywebb]

I previously removed the ground cable between the transmission and the body - it was fine, but I made everything shiny, etc. The engine grounds also look good tho I have not disassembled them.

When you say the batter neg to body, do you mean where I remove the battery and access the gnd to body beneath the battery?

re "- is there any test a shop can do on the cable from the battery to the starter?" I am wondering if there might be a problem inside the cable itself - the Van has always been owned in the PNW so has been in a low corrosion env.

re a shop doing things - I am old enough to make the idea of (again) lying on my back working on starters a no starter. Worse, the Van left me stranded last summer and while riding a bike to take care of that I became a hit & run spinal cord damage victim. I've made a lot of progress but need to limit certain activities.
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1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.

[randywebb]

I do not know that any part of the stock wires were cut thru, but this seems like a very bad idea to me...

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1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.

[stubear334]

I had a similar problem. Mine would crank fine cold, but hot it was a goner. Seek & destroy that crummy braided ground strap under coil & go to A-zone to purchase a proper, factory sealed black ground strap. I connected mine to the engine lift hole next to the tranny. My starter now spins like new chevy silverado.

I find that the generic battery cables have holes that are like 3/8". I break it off midways at the hole && drill a 3/16" hole for the metric body bolt to fit. Works great, looks kinda crappy, but not entering concours anytime soon.

[MarkWard]

Sorry, it was clear in my head. The battery ground cable attaches to the chassis in the battery box. I was talking about the area where the cable attaches to the chassis, not where the battery sits in the box. Also, when I suggest cleaning the battery terminal, I am not talking about washing them with baking soda. You need to remove them and using a battery terminal tool, make the inside of the clamp shinny and the same for the battery teminals.

Yes the test for a worn cable would be a voltage drop test that I mentioned above. Unfortunately in a gasser vanagon, the battery is a long way from the starter. So, any resistance built up over time will only aggrevate the circuit. The same is true of all electrical circuits. The add on hot start relay is added to bypass the ignition switch stock wiring to insure there is no voltage drop to the solenoid across the key/crank circuit. Another long run. If you decide to replace the battery cable, I would take it to a auto electrical shop locally and have a heavier gauge one made. Sorry for any confusion. markw
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[MarkWard]

And yes, the way they are grabbing power is the worst way possible other than scotchlocks. The black wire is key on power, the red is power all the time. It is better to grab power directly from the back of the fuse box, but that requires some knowledge. Most likely a stereo power supply. If the strands have been damaged by the crimp, then you are losing available power. That is over simplified to the experts here.
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[randywebb]

Thanks - I've cleaned the connectons at the battery several times with a purpose made battery "brush." The only connection I have not examined is the one beneath the battery.

While the ignition switch red & black wire taps are suspicious, I cannot get away from these facts:

- 30 or 40 starts from cold this year alone - all starts were fine & I cannot remember having this problem when cold
- at least a dozen starts with engine hot but stopped only for a few minutes - all starts were fine

- BUT if the Van is run for a while, then stopped and sits for 20 minutes or so it often will not crank or click (not sure if that happens always or not, but it happened this year, and last year)


I think this has to be a so-called "hot start" or "no crank when trying to start a hot engine" problem, and have started a separate thread for that. At the least, it seems the next thing to throw money at...
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1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.