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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51144
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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 Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| 1500king wrote: |
I don't understand that...
It is not the dimple/no dimple that determines max advance. It is the step in the arm that stops it and the peg that stops too much retard.
Was it a new vac can that you bought?
I have several various genuine new ones here, all different bus DVDA cans, not one of them has a dimple and the advance stops when the step in the arm reaches the housing. The only way you would get an over-advance is if the arm has pounded through the sheet metal at the can mount on a used can. 
Have had absolutely no issues with genuine Bosch new cans and running them up on the distributor machine.
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But..but..buuutt.....(at least in the 205Q) the advance stops before any part of that arm contacts anything, that tapered cutout isn't a reliable stop either as it would rely on the shape of the taper as well the breaker plate side bracket to be perfectly accurate every time, I can't imagine any German engineer relying on that when there's so many potential variables. The dimpled ones show a much lower vacuum advance range opposed to the non dimpled ones on the Oldvolks site and I'm convinced the dimple is the reason but I've been wrong before.
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 8:52 am Post subject: |
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That is interesting. I wonder, is it do to the weight of the bus or the cam profile?
Adv=Advance Ret= Vacuum Retard
71 Beetle
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 9-12deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 6-12deg @ 1500rpm, Total 22-25deg @ 3800rpm
71 Bus
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 2-5deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 12-16deg @ 2200rpm, Total 22-25deg @ 3800rpm |
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1500king
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2007
Posts: 209
Location: Adelaide, Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| 1500king wrote: |
I don't understand that...
It is not the dimple/no dimple that determines max advance. It is the step in the arm that stops it and the peg that stops too much retard.
Was it a new vac can that you bought?
I have several various genuine new ones here, all different bus DVDA cans, not one of them has a dimple and the advance stops when the step in the arm reaches the housing. The only way you would get an over-advance is if the arm has pounded through the sheet metal at the can mount on a used can.
Have had absolutely no issues with genuine Bosch new cans and running them up on the distributor machine.
|
But..but..buuutt.....(at least in the 205Q) the advance stops before any part of that arm contacts anything, that tapered cutout isn't a reliable stop either as it would rely on the shape of the taper as well the breaker plate side bracket to be perfectly accurate every time, I can't imagine any German engineer relying on that when there's so many potential variables. The dimpled ones show a much lower vacuum advance range opposed to the non dimpled ones on the Oldvolks site and I'm convinced the dimple is the reason but I've been wrong before. |
Of course!! The Indemnity clause!!
"but I've been wrong before"...PMSL!!
The taper in the arm serves NO purpose, you are looking at the wrong area..
A sloppy red "x"marks where you should be looking;
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1500king
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2007
Posts: 209
Location: Adelaide, Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Tcash wrote: |
That is interesting. I wonder, is it do to the weight of the bus or the cam profile?
Adv=Advance Ret= Vacuum Retard
71 Beetle
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 9-12deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 6-12deg @ 1500rpm, Total 22-25deg @ 3800rpm
71 Bus
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 2-5deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 12-16deg @ 2200rpm, Total 22-25deg @ 3800rpm |
In a nutshell,
The motor is under more load in a bus. Therefore, the throttle valves will be open more, less manifold vacuum due to it and the inlet mixture will be more dense. The dense mixture, when fired, will produce the thrust on the piston faster. You therefore need to ignite the mixture later to produce the correct thrust at the crown of the piston just after TDC(the ignition will be before TDC, but the peak thrust will occur after in a normal combustion situation).
When in light cruise, the mixture is sparse(not lean), takes longer to produce the thrust on the piston during burn, therefore needs to be ignited earlier...
There is more to it when comparing bug and bus, but the timing difference and the difference in carb spec go a long way and you are onto it!  |
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1500king
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2007
Posts: 209
Location: Adelaide, Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Yep, sure do! 1237121853 
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1500king
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2007
Posts: 209
Location: Adelaide, Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:47 am Post subject: |
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If you are looking for a Non smogged(non US) 1600 bus distributor that works well, then you need to find the 211905205S 71-73 dizzy, with the "461" vac can. You need to also find the right carb for it. This one is the "global", non smogged model, one you will not find on "old Volks Home".
The 461 vac can is hard to find, they can be reconditioned with new diaphragms, so do not throw them away!
Anyways...He did a great job for his first distributor build!! Well done! more people should be doing it. |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the comments, always appreciated. I drove a 1800 semi-flawless mile trip on it last summer, and when I got back this started happening:
Link
I timed the engine to 28* hoses off, and the idle fell at 5*atdc (exactly within spec.) Once the engine idled for a few seconds, the timing would drop drastically to about 20-30*atdc. The bus drove fine if you started it and got it driving in gear before the timing dropped. 
I havne't messed with it since, I've been driving with a Mallory Unilite programmed to give a 205Q-like curve without the idle retard.
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Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
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1500king
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2007
Posts: 209
Location: Adelaide, Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
Thanks for the comments, always appreciated. I drove a 1800 semi-flawless mile trip on it last summer, and when I got back this started happening:
Link
I timed the engine to 28* hoses off, and the idle fell at 5*atdc (exactly within spec.) Once the engine idled for a few seconds, the timing would drop drastically to about 20-30*atdc. The bus drove fine if you started it and got it driving in gear before the timing dropped.
I havne't messed with it since, I've been driving with a Mallory Unilite programmed to give a 205Q-like curve without the idle retard. |
Forget all that max timing shite...you've been led up the garden path with SVDA methodology and tricks.
With that distributor, you need to calibrate the carb throttle valve to VW spec- this is important to ensure the throttle valve is at the right spot for the advance side vac port, then @ 800-900rpm, time the distributor WITH EVERYTHING CONNECTED to 5 degrees ATDC(to the left of the TDC mark).
Needs to be set engine at operating temp, throttle at idle stop(no fast idle influence).
You also need to have the right carb that was designed for the DVDA..
Factory manual info and curve below...
 |
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Stuartzickefoose
Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008
Posts: 10350
Location: SoCal for now...
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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im completely lost on this right now. sadly, i think ill have to be rebuilding my dizzy here soon again...i suspect its causing me issues and i want it rock solid.
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2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| 1500king wrote: |
Forget all that max timing shite...you've been led up the garden path with SVDA methodology and tricks.
With that distributor, you need to calibrate the carb throttle valve to VW spec- this is important to ensure the throttle valve is at the right spot for the advance side vac port, then @ 800-900rpm, time the distributor WITH EVERYTHING CONNECTED to 5 degrees ATDC(to the left of the TDC mark).
Needs to be set engine at operating temp, throttle at idle stop(no fast idle influence).
You also need to have the right carb that was designed for the DVDA..
Factory manual info and curve below...
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Even if I didn't have the idle and carb set exactly by the book (which I did) or have the engine at operating temp (which I did) or have the factory manual curve chart (which I did) you could see that something is not mechanically sound in my distributor. Dropping 20-30* with no change on the vacuum gauge from either hose is unacceptable, and I'm curious to what you think the problem is.
(For what it's worth, checking a distributor's maximum advance without a distributor machine can ONLY be done by removing the hoses and noting the base timing, then the advance at given RPMs. There is merit in this, but not as much if you have the fancy test equipment.)
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51144
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| 1500king wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| 1500king wrote: |
I don't understand that...
It is not the dimple/no dimple that determines max advance. It is the step in the arm that stops it and the peg that stops too much retard.
Was it a new vac can that you bought?
I have several various genuine new ones here, all different bus DVDA cans, not one of them has a dimple and the advance stops when the step in the arm reaches the housing. The only way you would get an over-advance is if the arm has pounded through the sheet metal at the can mount on a used can.
Have had absolutely no issues with genuine Bosch new cans and running them up on the distributor machine.
|
But..but..buuutt.....(at least in the 205Q) the advance stops before any part of that arm contacts anything, that tapered cutout isn't a reliable stop either as it would rely on the shape of the taper as well the breaker plate side bracket to be perfectly accurate every time, I can't imagine any German engineer relying on that when there's so many potential variables. The dimpled ones show a much lower vacuum advance range opposed to the non dimpled ones on the Oldvolks site and I'm convinced the dimple is the reason but I've been wrong before. |
Of course!! The Indemnity clause!!
"but I've been wrong before"...PMSL!!
The taper in the arm serves NO purpose, you are looking at the wrong area..
A sloppy red "x"marks where you should be looking;
|
Alright, I had another look and I concede that that notch does seem to stop the advance as well (I have yet to find my box of nos and used cans for a full test of almost all style units), but how do you explain the fact that the dimple is only found on can's with restricted vacuum advance range?, perhaps it's a double safety feature?. And then there's the Bosch #917 can with the screw in the end, the screw is conveniently placed in the very same spot the bottom of that dimple would be yet it's adjustable, I suspect on preset cans the dimple aids in the stopping to save stress on other parts like the diaphragm and arm, either way the dimple is the first thing I look for in the boxes at the swaps and it has yet to fail me.
As for the not setting the timing for max advance I agree but at the same time have issues with the theory, partly because the average somewhat non mechanical type isn't going to have any of the equipment required to accomplish such a task and partly because between the age of the parts and the mixing due to good looking used replacements with different base numbers the odds of actually having all the correct stuff is almost zero. Max advance is still better than blindly setting to idle retard in the 21'st century IMO unless you have all the equipment to calibrate and measure, out of the question for hippydude surfer in his driveway while his girlfriend keeps saying "are you done?, can we go to the beach now"?......
I'm not trying to start a battle here but I am obsessed with discovering the entire truth, I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong, are you?
BTW here's a #917 can to save you looking it up:
Found in this thread thanks to RayGreenwood:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...mp;start=0
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
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Desertbusman
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005
Posts: 14655
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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The absolute bottom line is that when you are cruising down the highway you want the timing correct. And the more you are in the throttle the more important it is. Idle is one thing and getting up from idle to cruise naturally is important also but not nearly as much as under load at your cruise RPM where power demand and heat production is at the max.
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71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| 1500king wrote: |
| Tcash wrote: |
That is interesting. I wonder, is it do to the weight of the bus or the cam profile?
Adv=Advance Ret= Vacuum Retard
71 Beetle
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 9-12deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 6-12deg @ 1500rpm, Total 22-25deg @ 3800rpm
71 Bus
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 2-5deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 12-16deg @ 2200rpm, Total 22-25deg @ 3800rpm |
In a nutshell,
The motor is under more load in a bus. Therefore, the throttle valves will be open more, less manifold vacuum due to it and the inlet mixture will be more dense. The dense mixture, when fired, will produce the thrust on the piston faster. You therefore need to ignite the mixture later to produce the correct thrust at the crown of the piston just after TDC(the ignition will be before TDC, but the peak thrust will occur after in a normal combustion situation).
When in light cruise, the mixture is sparse(not lean), takes longer to produce the thrust on the piston during burn, therefore needs to be ignited earlier...
There is more to it when comparing bug and bus, but the timing difference and the difference in carb spec go a long way and you are onto it! |
You mean lean. Light cruise will generally be lean requiring more advance.
In a bus that can weigh 2+ tons ones not likely going to be in light cruise often if at all on the highway.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51144
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| udidwht wrote: |
| 1500king wrote: |
| Tcash wrote: |
That is interesting. I wonder, is it do to the weight of the bus or the cam profile?
Adv=Advance Ret= Vacuum Retard
71 Beetle
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 9-12deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 6-12deg @ 1500rpm, Total 22-25deg @ 3800rpm
71 Bus
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 2-5deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 12-16deg @ 2200rpm, Total 22-25deg @ 3800rpm |
In a nutshell,
The motor is under more load in a bus. Therefore, the throttle valves will be open more, less manifold vacuum due to it and the inlet mixture will be more dense. The dense mixture, when fired, will produce the thrust on the piston faster. You therefore need to ignite the mixture later to produce the correct thrust at the crown of the piston just after TDC(the ignition will be before TDC, but the peak thrust will occur after in a normal combustion situation).
When in light cruise, the mixture is sparse(not lean), takes longer to produce the thrust on the piston during burn, therefore needs to be ignited earlier...
There is more to it when comparing bug and bus, but the timing difference and the difference in carb spec go a long way and you are onto it! |
You mean lean. Light cruise will generally be lean requiring more advance.
In a bus that can weigh 2+ tons ones not likely going to be in light cruise often if at all on the highway. |
And that's why a true bus only distributor is more limited in advance as well as how fast it comes on. And as 1500King says the carb also plays a part in the formula.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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1500king
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2007
Posts: 209
Location: Adelaide, Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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|
| busdaddy wrote: |
| 1500king wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| 1500king wrote: |
I don't understand that...
It is not the dimple/no dimple that determines max advance. It is the step in the arm that stops it and the peg that stops too much retard.
Was it a new vac can that you bought?
I have several various genuine new ones here, all different bus DVDA cans, not one of them has a dimple and the advance stops when the step in the arm reaches the housing. The only way you would get an over-advance is if the arm has pounded through the sheet metal at the can mount on a used can.
Have had absolutely no issues with genuine Bosch new cans and running them up on the distributor machine.
|
But..but..buuutt.....(at least in the 205Q) the advance stops before any part of that arm contacts anything, that tapered cutout isn't a reliable stop either as it would rely on the shape of the taper as well the breaker plate side bracket to be perfectly accurate every time, I can't imagine any German engineer relying on that when there's so many potential variables. The dimpled ones show a much lower vacuum advance range opposed to the non dimpled ones on the Oldvolks site and I'm convinced the dimple is the reason but I've been wrong before. |
Of course!! The Indemnity clause!!
"but I've been wrong before"...PMSL!!
The taper in the arm serves NO purpose, you are looking at the wrong area..
A sloppy red "x"marks where you should be looking;
|
Alright, I had another look and I concede that that notch does seem to stop the advance as well (I have yet to find my box of nos and used cans for a full test of almost all style units), but how do you explain the fact that the dimple is only found on can's with restricted vacuum advance range?, perhaps it's a double safety feature?. And then there's the Bosch #917 can with the screw in the end, the screw is conveniently placed in the very same spot the bottom of that dimple would be yet it's adjustable, I suspect on preset cans the dimple aids in the stopping to save stress on other parts like the diaphragm and arm, either way the dimple is the first thing I look for in the boxes at the swaps and it has yet to fail me.
As for the not setting the timing for max advance I agree but at the same time have issues with the theory, partly because the average somewhat non mechanical type isn't going to have any of the equipment required to accomplish such a task and partly because between the age of the parts and the mixing due to good looking used replacements with different base numbers the odds of actually having all the correct stuff is almost zero. Max advance is still better than blindly setting to idle retard in the 21'st century IMO unless you have all the equipment to calibrate and measure, out of the question for hippydude surfer in his driveway while his girlfriend keeps saying "are you done?, can we go to the beach now"?......
I'm not trying to start a battle here but I am obsessed with discovering the entire truth, I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong, are you?
BTW here's a #917 can to save you looking it up:
Found in this thread thanks to RayGreenwood:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...mp;start=0 |
Yeah, I'm a bit different, I look at the part number. Dual vac "851" vac can doesn't have a dimple, but that is for a 1971 113905205AJ distributor...It is not any other spec for any other distributor.
When we chat about these types of things, I hope to encourage that people get a better understanding of their ignition systems.
It's all good! and more than happy to be corrected if/when I need to be.
Yep, read that thread....Tram is on the money 100% . No more said. If you are having to jump through hoops to time your engine instead of getting it right with the factory procedure, then you have an issue with your ignition/vac signal from the carb. You will either have a fault or the incorrect spec parts on your engine...if it is out of spec, fix it...period...which brings me to my next point....that "917" vac can.
You mean this one below? If you have any doubts about the pic, I can write a greeting on the box if you like!! 
IMHO, without looking at the part number on the distributor, that looks like the incorrect distributor for the vac can. It doesn't look like a 0231 174 007 which is the last 1700 Porsche 914 D-Jet distributor, just for you lads over in the Americas with all the smog equipment hanging off of ur engines!.
The Porsche 914 that we had over here was the 85Hp "AN" code 1800 engine with the dual solex 36-40 PDSIT's and 8.0:1 CR....oh and svda(a type 4 one)!
My suspicion on that adjustment, as it is the very last smogged up 1700 Type 4 vac can would be to limit exhaust HC's and CO when tuning through the motors life as manifold vacuum changes.
Wouldn't surprise me if it was a fix just to sell the car in California as the Authorities were emissions crazy back then(and still are?).
I'm sure that Tram knows...he is the D-Jet king! |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hi 1500, just to confirm. The 853 you have, does not have the dimple in it?
Thank You
Tcash |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 12:21 pm Post subject: timing drop |
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Hi asiab3, while reviewing your pics, I discovered this one. This may be causing your weight to hang up. Best test is to pull a vacuum on it and watch the rotor and see if it rebounds smoothly when you release the vacuum. You may find that the rotor comes to a stop and them suddenly snaps back.
This can be performed with your fingers, but you run the risk of false results do to moving it with mechanical forces being applied.
Hope this helps.
Edit; Just had a thought. It may require using your fingers to advance it past the sticky part.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: timing drop |
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| Tcash wrote: |
Hi asiab3, while reviewing your pics, I discovered this one. This may be causing your weight to hang up. Best test is to pull a vacuum on it and watch the rotor and see if it rebounds smoothly when you release the vacuum. You may find that the rotor comes to a stop and them suddenly snaps back.
This can be performed with your fingers, but you run the risk of false results do to moving it with mechanical forces being applied.
Hope this helps.
Edit; Just had a thought. It may require using your fingers to advance it past the sticky part.
|
Pulling vacuum on either port does not move the rotor- so I don't see how that would be related. There is no sticky part in the vacuum advance mechanism, the plate rotates smoothly and sucking on either vacuum port moves the points plate appropriately.
Twisting and snap-releasing the rotor gives a super smooth return, exactly like my brand new Mallory. It might not look like it, but I am letting it release between each hand-advance. The advance springs just work really well. No snag either- that cosmetic blemish was taken care of with a polishing cloth last year…
Link
The distributor falls to 5-10atdc during idle when timed 28-30btdc hoses off, only after a few seconds does it fall to 20-30atdc.
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51144
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: timing drop |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| The distributor falls to 5-10atdc during idle when timed 28-30btdc hoses off, only after a few seconds does it fall to 20-30atdc. |
What happens if you disconnect the vaccum lines and cap them?
Edit:
Oh wait, just re read the part about hoses off already 
Seems to me like you've got some missing bushings or springs in the mechanial advance mechanism even though it seemingly feels smooth.
or does the bonus retard only happen when it's all connected up normally?
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Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Ya screwed that one up. Vacuum moves the plate. The only thing that I can think of that would cause your symptoms is the advance hanging up. Or maybe a vacuum leak.
Does that make sense |
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