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re-installing engine
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williamM
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:13 am    Post subject: LOTS of great advise Reply with quote

Mine was a fighter So finally took a turnbuckle and held the TO bearing out a bit to release the clutch as the engine was getting into position and as stated- WOOP THERE IT IS. undid the the turn buckle and all was well.
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BusBerd
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys!

I am getting a clutch tool tonight. If it will still not slide on after that, I am going to drop the transmission again. (yes, I will mate them on the ground from now on).
Frustrating because I wanted to be driving my bus to our bus group get together tonight!
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BusBerd
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The engine is in!

The clutch was perfectly aligned when i checked it with the clutch tool.

At the bus group get together tonight, Colin suggested that I drop the front of the tranny 6" to more easily mate the engine to the tranny. which helped.

Also Embarassed I forgot to re-install the two bottom engine/tranny case bolts before I was installing the engine. yeah, I know. so that sure helped guide it in right. I would have had to take the engine back out anyway once I realized my mistake.

Once I had the engine in, it was a bit difficult to access those two bolts on the top of the tranny that hold it to the body of the bus. But with a little awkward-angle encouragement and persistence they finally found their path.

live and learn, baby. live and learn.

Thanks for the help guys!
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mikedjames
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the two bottom bolts as guides to line it all up. Get the engine nearly in. Balance it on jack and then look round the side from below to see the relative angle and alignment of the bolts.
Kick the jack around some tilt the engine a bit more and repeat.
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Westy Steve
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resurrecting this thread hoping ya'll can dumb it down. What exactly does the alignment tool do? Do you only need that if you take the clutch off the engine? For example, if I took an engine out and put it right back in, would an alignment tool be needed? Or only if I started playing about with the flywheel area of the engine?

Also, I'm swapping out my muffler and exhaust. Should I wait to install *some* of the exhaust sections until after the motor is in the bus?

Thanks for any simplification.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No realignment needed unless you disturb the pressure plate. As for exhaust it can all be on pre install but if you are manhandling it solo a lighter engine is sometimes easier to wrestle.
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WI sportmobile
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Westy Steve wrote:
Resurrecting this thread hoping ya'll can dumb it down. What exactly does the alignment tool do? Do you only need that if you take the clutch off the engine? For example, if I took an engine out and put it right back in, would an alignment tool be needed? Or only if I started playing about with the flywheel area of the engine?

Also, I'm swapping out my muffler and exhaust. Should I wait to install *some* of the exhaust sections until after the motor is in the bus?

Thanks for any simplification.


Ok, let's see. The alignment tool centers the clutch disc so it is aligned with the pilot bearing in the crank shaft while you are bolting on the pressure plate. After the pressure plate is bolted on, the clutch disc will stay in place. The clutch disc and the pilot bearing need to be aligned so you can easily attach the engine to the tranny. IF you don't remove the pressure plate from the fly wheel you don't need the tool.

I would put all of the exhaust on before install. This is a T4 engine correct?
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Westy Steve
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whew, thanks guys. I'm really stressing about this. It was an absolute bear to take my engine out, and I'm not looking forward to putting it back in.

So if I don't need an alignment tool because I never took off the pressure plate, it's just a matter of jacking it up into place and sliding it home? I shouldn't need to worry about the clutch disk and pilot bearing lining up, right...it's automatically going to happen as I slide the motor on the studs and shaft?

I'm re-using an exhaust system, so I'll be removing one and rebolting it. I'd like the extra room, but that isn't going to help me if I get the motor on the bus and then can't get the exhaust bolted back up.
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WI sportmobile
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It never hurts to double check. Now's the time to replace the clutch disc if you can. Also while the engine is out......... The list goes on.

Yes, get the exhaust in place ahead of time.
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bruehoyt
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow - I can't believe that some of you think it is easier to lower or remove teh transmission to remove the engine. The thing slides right out and to get it back in I ALWAYS check the clutch alignment. it gets bumped on removal from car often.

If I have gone 10k and teh engine is already out, I replace the clutch just cause it is easy..

Yes a broom stick or other straight object will work but for five bucks you can save yourself a lot of headaches.

When putting it back in you definitely want the exhaust already on. That is what you hold and manipulate as you slide it in.

I bring the engine up on the floor jack it came out on and typically stays on.

bring it up just clear of the shaft - the exhaust side of the engine will need to be tilted down until transmission shaft is centered on clutch. push the jack toward teh front of the car until the lower bolts come through.

lift the exhaust and slide the engine on. you will probably need to roack teh engine a little to get it centered.

slide it all the way in. get all four nuts started before tightening them down. using a box wrench is easier than a socket for this job.

NO GREASE! I don't put anything on. I have taken out a couple dozen engines. The first one and the mystery blockage 5th or 6th one took a little longer but it typically takes 10 minutes to remove it and 15 to install it.

If you have to force it - pull it out and figure out what you are doing wrong.

removal problems arise when you forget to remove heater cables, or throttle
install problems - clutch not aligned. engine not centered. throttle not pulled through.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruehoyt wrote:
Wow - I can't believe that some of you think it is easier to lower or remove teh transmission to remove the engine. .

Sounds like you've never installed a type 4 in a 72+ bus to me.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
bruehoyt wrote:
Wow - I can't believe that some of you think it is easier to lower or remove teh transmission to remove the engine. .

Sounds like you've never installed a type 4 in a 72+ bus to me.


Could hardly be easier with the transmission still installed and the rear of the box dropped few inches. Wink

I concur that one needs to verify that the clutch disc didn't drop out of place during removal. That is a regular occurrence when the engine and tranny haven't been spilt in a decade and the splines are rusty or gummed up. If you get things cocked while pulling the engine that can also cause the disc to drop. Never on a VW but many times on other rigs, I have had to use a come-along to pull and engine and tranny apart. I too will replace a relatively new disc just because I have access and do the flywheel seal at the same time, though I set my minimum mileage at 50K for doing so. The tool isn't strictly needed, I have a 3/8" deep socket that works just perfect that I have been using for years. You can also just look through the spline towards the pilot bearing and see if everything is in alignment.
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Westy Steve
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good info. I think I'm conceptualizing what's going on now...the clutch is just a loose plate inside those splines (pressure plate?) that needs to line up, so that they share the same center and both will slide on the shaft like a ladies wedding band and engagement ring going on one finger. I can manage that.

So since I'm asking all these questions, the clutch I have on the engine I am going to install is used and untested. But I have another clutch from an old engine that was working well. Is there any reason why I can't swap out the unknown clutch for the one I know works? Does that procedure take very long? Sounds like I just unbolt the pressure plate, put in my new clutch, and align the clutch while I bolt up the pressure plate...right? My "to do" list associated with pulling my engine, swapping over parts and putting in a good used engine is expanding faster than I can do the work.

I'm trying to not contaminate this thread with my own problems, but maybe my dumb questions will help someone else.
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Last edited by Westy Steve on Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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williamM
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: alighment of clutch/engine install. Reply with quote

larrydeville wrote:
When we purchased our 77 camper the engine was out in pieces parts and wrong...a 1.7L After putting the right thing together I figured out if someone got it out with the tranny in I could get it back in....if no then I would drop the tranny. Now I see why some of the tin was MISSING. To go in I removed the most aft tin and put two layers of cardboard between the cooling shroud and the inside edge of the engine compartment as I weasled the motor in. I had it on a floor jack that rolled nicely. Then I installed the exhaust system. Next time I will try it the correct way but I hate the ball bearings in the CV joints that try to fall out. ....good luck...Larry



If the cv balls are falling out they are worn and you need new CV joints IMHO
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NoBudgetVWGarage
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to use the handle to my ratchet to align my clutch plate before I finally popped for the tool.

I never take out trans and engine at the same time. I'm usually doing it by myself with a cheap floor jack. Embarassed
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Derek Cobb
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bajaman73 wrote:
I used to use the handle to my ratchet to align my clutch plate before I finally popped for the tool.

I never take out trans and engine at the same time. I'm usually doing it by myself with a cheap floor jack. Embarassed

I concur. If you have help or a transmission jack it should be a one man job, but with a simple floor jack it's just a little too unwieldy for me to do alone.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
bruehoyt wrote:
Wow - I can't believe that some of you think it is easier to lower or remove teh transmission to remove the engine. .

Sounds like you've never installed a type 4 in a 72+ bus to me.


Could hardly be easier with the transmission still installed and the rear of the box dropped few inches. Wink


Agreed, but bruehoyt suggests leaving it bolted up, that often leads to mangled pressure plate fingers and a traumatized input shaft, so much easier to lower the trans a few inches.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Westy Steve wrote:
So since I'm asking all these questions, the clutch I have on the engine I am going to install is used and untested. But I have another clutch from an old engine that was working well. Is there any reason why I can't swap out the unknown clutch for the one I know works? Does that procedure take very long? Sounds like I just unbolt the pressure plate, put in my new clutch, and align the clutch while I bolt up the pressure plate...right? My "to do" list associated with pulling my engine, swapping over parts and putting in a good used engine is expanding faster than I can do the work.

I'm trying to not contaminate this thread with my own problems, but maybe my dumb questions will help someone else.


Clutch discs are pretty cheap, so not using a new one will not save you much. If the cover has obviously been hot or if there is a lot of obvious wear when you lay a straight edge across the wear surface then replacement of the cover is also in order, probably along with having the flywheel turned. The main seal is behind the flywheel, if it has more than 50K on it you should replace it now as well. Many recommend the Victor Reinz seal. To do either the clutch and main seal, you just need an alignment tool and a torque wrench on top of a few every day mechanic's tools. Don't forget to replace the pilot bearing while you are in there, this is another cheap part.
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NoBudgetVWGarage
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They sell "clutch kits" now with everything needed including the alignment tool. That's how I ended up with one Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
bruehoyt wrote:
Wow - I can't believe that some of you think it is easier to lower or remove teh transmission to remove the engine. .

Sounds like you've never installed a type 4 in a 72+ bus to me.



ah - you are correct! I have a 71 bus with a type 1 1641 cc single carb california exhaust. most of my other vw's were ghias. i have never had a type 3 or 4.

what is different about the way a T4 mounts? are there still 2 lower and 2 upper bolts? i have always thought teh upper -especially with the external oil cooler are the harder to do. with a pancake engine - i thought those would just be easier to access..

with all seriousness i truly don't know what added obstacles there are.

what is different?
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