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crowther
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Joined: May 07, 2009
Posts: 63
Location: Central Virginia
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 Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: Best place for fuel filter on a '63 beetle? |
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So i replaced my inline fuel filter which is located in the line between the pump and the carb, which places it just above the distributor.
I've seen a few posts suggesting that's not the bets place for it (I can see why).
Where should I install my fuel filter instead of the original location?
Paul
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Paul
63 Bug, just because
57 MGA for the sunny days
82 911SC daily driver
12 MiniCooper ALL4
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Murdock00
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Joined: April 16, 2013
Posts: 72
Location: Georgia, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Just under the gas tank or near the transaxle is usually the two recommended. |
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DjEngle
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Joined: April 13, 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Santa Ana, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have mine here. I don't know if its the best spot but its easy to change and I can see when it looks like its pretty dirty. Plus you kinda want the order to go; gas tank, filter, fuel pump, then carburetor.
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Helfen
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Location: Vulcania
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Culito
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Joined: December 07, 2006
Posts: 5866
Location: Columbia Missourah
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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I put mine off to the left side.
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Copyright CJ Industries, Inc.
'64 standard w/2.0L type 4
'62 bug
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Jon65
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Joined: September 29, 2012
Posts: 2417
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Murdock00 wrote: |
| Just under the gas tank or near the transaxle is usually the two recommended. |
X2. |
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crowther
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Joined: May 07, 2009
Posts: 63
Location: Central Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:10 am Post subject: |
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I just noticed in my VW owners manual that the factory installed fuel filter is apparently the metal screen in the fuel pump, and is intended to be cleaned regularly.
I guess all these in-line filters we're talking about are intended to be BEFORE the fuel pump, in order to keep that screen as clean as possible. That makes a lot of sense.
Is that right?
Paul
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Paul
63 Bug, just because
57 MGA for the sunny days
82 911SC daily driver
12 MiniCooper ALL4
04 F150 for big jobs
2 car garage for all of this |
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bowtiebug
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Joined: March 17, 2013
Posts: 902
Location: North Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:03 am Post subject: |
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under the fuel tank is best , for those that have filters in the engine bay that is a fire waiting to happen , the plastic ones especially will get hot and leak and its bye bye bug
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runamoc 
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Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 5601
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:04 am Post subject: |
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I've got this Plymouth Van fuel filter mounted just behind the front beam. It 'mounts' with a one hole tab and has the in/out on the same side.
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Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 44 yrs - Plan B: '81 Rabbit Diesel LS Deluxe - Plan C: '72 Ghia
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drscope
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Joined: February 19, 2007
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Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Lots of folks want to put the filter where its easy to get to so they can change it easily when the time comes. But the reality is that most people will never change the darn thing unless it gets so plugged up they have trouble. So many of these filters stay in line for years and years without ever being changed.
Some people also want to be able to see it so they know when it needs to be changed. But most of these filters actually filter from the inside out. So you won’t see crud in them anyway unless it has actually gotten past the filter medium and is still in the housing.
If the filter gets clogged, the result is a fuel starvation issue. The car cuts out when you have a heavy fuel demand.
So, since you never change it, and you can’t see when it is clogged, do you really need it in a BAD place where you can see it and easily get to it?
Under the fuel tank is a really good place for the filter. Its not that difficult to get to if you remove a wheel. It can be a small issue if you have a full fuel load when you want to change it, but its a pretty good location for something that will ultimately be forgotten about until it gets plugged up and stops passing fuel.
The rubber line where it exits the frame horn next to the transmission is another good place for the filter. Its easy to install there and easily accessible if you pull the wheel off. Its also usually not as bad as dealing with a filter under the tank if you have a full fuel load as you have a little more room to work in to pull the old filter and plug the line or quickly plug the new one in place.
You NEVER want to put the filter after the fuel pump! There are several reasons for this. Some are, that if you have a problem with fuel delivery you probably want to know about it when it shows up on the suction side and not on the pressure side. This way you identify the problem sooner. If you have the filter on the pressure side it will pass fuel for a longer period of time after the problem starts to clog the filter.
Another more important thing is that the fuel pump continues to pump and make pressure any time the engine is running. The carb is not always allowing fuel into the bowl. So when the carb bowl fills and the needle valve shuts, the pressure builds in the line between pump and carb. If you have your filter in that line, you have introduced 2 more joints that are prone to leaks or coming disconnected. And if that happens, atomized raw fuel will be blown into the engine compartment right over the distributor where the sparks live.
That problem can also be made worse if you have old arcing plug wires on the car. And FYI, they ALL arc! Even new ones.
Then there is also the issue of the weight of the fuel in the filter when it is in that location. There is a LOT of vibration going on and that extra little bit of weight can lead to problems like the fitting pulling out of the carb. That will also have catastrophic results when that fuel lights off.
And remember that the engine will run on just the fuel in the float bowl for about 3 minutes at high revs once the fuel supply has been cut off. So if you do have a filter failure where raw gas is spewed into the engine compartment, the fire will happen quickly and may burn for several minutes before you even notice it. The engine will continue to run unless the fire burns through one of the ignition components stopping the spark.
It’s no fun to be driving along at speed thinking about how well the car is running and suddenly see flames in your rear view mirror. And trust me, driving faster will NOT blow them out. Driving faster simply makes the fuel pump pump faster and deliver more fuel to the fire.
That fuel filter is a simple little thing, but putting it in the wrong place or mounting it incorrectly can have long lasting and deadly results.
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bowtiebug
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Location: North Texas
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crowther
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Joined: May 07, 2009
Posts: 63
Location: Central Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Figures that a guy with that many posts could describe in such clear terms the whole fuel filter issue.
Thanks, Doc. I will not let my wife drive her car until I put a proper filter in a proper location, along with new flex lines.
Paul
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Paul
63 Bug, just because
57 MGA for the sunny days
82 911SC daily driver
12 MiniCooper ALL4
04 F150 for big jobs
2 car garage for all of this |
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Helfen
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Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| drscope wrote: |
Lots of folks want to put the filter where its easy to get to so they can change it easily when the time comes. But the reality is that most people will never change the darn thing unless it gets so plugged up they have trouble. So many of these filters stay in line for years and years without ever being changed.
Some people also want to be able to see it so they know when it needs to be changed. But most of these filters actually filter from the inside out. So you won’t see crud in them anyway unless it has actually gotten past the filter medium and is still in the housing.
If the filter gets clogged, the result is a fuel starvation issue. The car cuts out when you have a heavy fuel demand.
So, since you never change it, and you can’t see when it is clogged, do you really need it in a BAD place where you can see it and easily get to it?
Under the fuel tank is a really good place for the filter. Its not that difficult to get to if you remove a wheel. It can be a small issue if you have a full fuel load when you want to change it, but its a pretty good location for something that will ultimately be forgotten about until it gets plugged up and stops passing fuel.
The rubber line where it exits the frame horn next to the transmission is another good place for the filter. Its easy to install there and easily accessible if you pull the wheel off. Its also usually not as bad as dealing with a filter under the tank if you have a full fuel load as you have a little more room to work in to pull the old filter and plug the line or quickly plug the new one in place.
You NEVER want to put the filter after the fuel pump! There are several reasons for this. Some are, that if you have a problem with fuel delivery you probably want to know about it when it shows up on the suction side and not on the pressure side. This way you identify the problem sooner. If you have the filter on the pressure side it will pass fuel for a longer period of time after the problem starts to clog the filter.
Another more important thing is that the fuel pump continues to pump and make pressure any time the engine is running. The carb is not always allowing fuel into the bowl. So when the carb bowl fills and the needle valve shuts, the pressure builds in the line between pump and carb. If you have your filter in that line, you have introduced 2 more joints that are prone to leaks or coming disconnected. And if that happens, atomized raw fuel will be blown into the engine compartment right over the distributor where the sparks live.
That problem can also be made worse if you have old arcing plug wires on the car. And FYI, they ALL arc! Even new ones.
Then there is also the issue of the weight of the fuel in the filter when it is in that location. There is a LOT of vibration going on and that extra little bit of weight can lead to problems like the fitting pulling out of the carb. That will also have catastrophic results when that fuel lights off.
And remember that the engine will run on just the fuel in the float bowl for about 3 minutes at high revs once the fuel supply has been cut off. So if you do have a filter failure where raw gas is spewed into the engine compartment, the fire will happen quickly and may burn for several minutes before you even notice it. The engine will continue to run unless the fire burns through one of the ignition components stopping the spark.
It’s no fun to be driving along at speed thinking about how well the car is running and suddenly see flames in your rear view mirror. And trust me, driving faster will NOT blow them out. Driving faster simply makes the fuel pump pump faster and deliver more fuel to the fire.
That fuel filter is a simple little thing, but putting it in the wrong place or mounting it incorrectly can have long lasting and deadly results. |
So how do you explain this one from the factory?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/60accessories/page3.jpg
How do you exlpain why many makes do it this way as well. How do you explain the pressure relief built into pumps that stop them from pumping once a certain pressure is built up, vertually all fuel pumps that were built before vapor emissions required a fuel return to the tank? How do you explain (fuel filters between the pump and carburetor) why some carburetors have the fuel filter built into them like Q-Jet, 2CG's and Mono-Jet ?
Lastly, How do you explain VW dealerships parts departments supplying us mechanic's as part of a tune up the plastic filters going between pump and carburetor when the cars started coming without a filter screen on the fuel pump? |
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Culito
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Joined: December 07, 2006
Posts: 5866
Location: Columbia Missourah
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Helfen wrote: |
So how do you explain this one from the factory?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/60accessories/page3.jpg
How do you exlpain why many makes do it this way as well. How do you explain the pressure relief built into pumps that stop them from pumping once a certain pressure is built up, vertually all fuel pumps that were built before vapor emissions required a fuel return to the tank? How do you explain (fuel filters between the pump and carburetor) why some carburetors have the fuel filter built into them like Q-Jet, 2CG's and Mono-Jet ?
Lastly, How do you explain VW dealerships parts departments supplying us mechanic's as part of a tune up the plastic filters going between pump and carburetor when the cars started coming without a filter screen on the fuel pump? |
Is that VW filter hanging on the carb inlet? Do you think VW could predict the brass inlet pulling out of the carb body?
The VW carb does not have a filter in it and the pump does not have a pressure cutoff..so what does that have to do with VWs?
Maybe if VW still made fuel pumps, carburetors, and accessory fuel filters, and held them up to quality standards, I'd trust them. But they don't. New fuel pumps often put out too much pressure and could make a balloon out of a hot plastic fuel filter. I've seen it happen.
If you want to have that above your distributor, feel free.
_________________
Copyright CJ Industries, Inc.
'64 standard w/2.0L type 4
'62 bug
| johnnypan wrote: |
| ...dont pay no attention to Culito,he's a cornhole.. |
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Helfen
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Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Culito wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
So how do you explain this one from the factory?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/60accessories/page3.jpg
How do you exlpain why many makes do it this way as well. How do you explain the pressure relief built into pumps that stop them from pumping once a certain pressure is built up, vertually all fuel pumps that were built before vapor emissions required a fuel return to the tank? How do you explain (fuel filters between the pump and carburetor) why some carburetors have the fuel filter built into them like Q-Jet, 2CG's and Mono-Jet ?
Lastly, How do you explain VW dealerships parts departments supplying us mechanic's as part of a tune up the plastic filters going between pump and carburetor when the cars started coming without a filter screen on the fuel pump? |
Is that VW filter hanging on the carb inlet? Do you think VW could predict the brass inlet pulling out of the carb body?
The VW carb does not have a filter in it and the pump does not have a pressure cutoff..so what does that have to do with VWs?
Maybe if VW still made fuel pumps, carburetors, and accessory fuel filters, and held them up to quality standards, I'd trust them. But they don't. New fuel pumps often put out too much pressure and could make a balloon out of a hot plastic fuel filter. I've seen it happen.
If you want to have that above your distributor, feel free. |
The carburetor typically contains a float bowl into which the expelled fuel is pumped. When the fuel level in the float bowl exceeds a certain level, the inlet valve to the carburetor will close, preventing the fuel pump from pumping more fuel into the carburetor. At this point, any remaining fuel inside the pump chamber is trapped, unable to exit through the inlet port or outlet port. The diaphragm will continue to allow pressure to the diaphragm, and during the subsequent rotation, the eccentric will pull the diaphragm back to bottom dead center, where it will remain until the inlet valve to the carburetor reopens.
The VW operating even at HWY speeds consumes much less fuel than is pumped at 2 psi from the pump to the carburetor float bowl. The engine at idle consumes even less, if the pump continues to pump like you said the fuel would find the least line of resistance and most likely force the needle open and overflow through the bowl vent. |
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Culito
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Joined: December 07, 2006
Posts: 5866
Location: Columbia Missourah
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Helfen wrote: |
| Culito wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
So how do you explain this one from the factory?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/60accessories/page3.jpg
How do you exlpain why many makes do it this way as well. How do you explain the pressure relief built into pumps that stop them from pumping once a certain pressure is built up, vertually all fuel pumps that were built before vapor emissions required a fuel return to the tank? How do you explain (fuel filters between the pump and carburetor) why some carburetors have the fuel filter built into them like Q-Jet, 2CG's and Mono-Jet ?
Lastly, How do you explain VW dealerships parts departments supplying us mechanic's as part of a tune up the plastic filters going between pump and carburetor when the cars started coming without a filter screen on the fuel pump? |
Is that VW filter hanging on the carb inlet? Do you think VW could predict the brass inlet pulling out of the carb body?
The VW carb does not have a filter in it and the pump does not have a pressure cutoff..so what does that have to do with VWs?
Maybe if VW still made fuel pumps, carburetors, and accessory fuel filters, and held them up to quality standards, I'd trust them. But they don't. New fuel pumps often put out too much pressure and could make a balloon out of a hot plastic fuel filter. I've seen it happen.
If you want to have that above your distributor, feel free. |
The carburetor typically contains a float bowl into which the expelled fuel is pumped. When the fuel level in the float bowl exceeds a certain level, the inlet valve to the carburetor will close, preventing the fuel pump from pumping more fuel into the carburetor. At this point, any remaining fuel inside the pump chamber is trapped, unable to exit through the inlet port or outlet port. The diaphragm will continue to allow pressure to the diaphragm, and during the subsequent rotation, the eccentric will pull the diaphragm back to bottom dead center, where it will remain until the inlet valve to the carburetor reopens.
The VW operating even at HWY speeds consumes much less fuel than is pumped at 2 psi from the pump to the carburetor float bowl. The engine at idle consumes even less, if the pump continues to pump like you said the fuel would find the least line of resistance and most likely force the needle open and overflow through the bowl vent. |
Alright...so what are your calculations regarding the pressure needed to overcome a typical carb needle valve?
You don't have them, because VW no longer makes needle valves, and quality control for the rebuild kits are a crapshoot at best.
In a perfect world, everything would work as it should. But that is no longer the case with aftermarket parts.
So either put your fuel filter outside the engine compartment where it could come in contact with ignition components, or risk the unknown.
Your choice.
_________________
Copyright CJ Industries, Inc.
'64 standard w/2.0L type 4
'62 bug
| johnnypan wrote: |
| ...dont pay no attention to Culito,he's a cornhole.. |
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crowther
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Joined: May 07, 2009
Posts: 63
Location: Central Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:20 am Post subject: |
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Geez, I'm sorry I ever brought this up!
So, to sum it all up:
There are many options and opinions in choosing a location for your fuel filter, including whether one is even needed at all. As with any repair or modification, quality components and skillful installation is necessary to insure safe, reliable performance from your classic automobile.
I know what I'm gonna do now.
Paul
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Paul
63 Bug, just because
57 MGA for the sunny days
82 911SC daily driver
12 MiniCooper ALL4
04 F150 for big jobs
2 car garage for all of this |
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Joey
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Posts: 5366
Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:05 am Post subject: |
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If your fuel pump has a filter then there is no need for an in-line filter.
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‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9147
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:40 am Post subject: |
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If for no other reason, putting the filter before your pump will save your pump from any crap that may come down the line from the fuel system. Steel lines and tanks rust, rubber hose deteriorates and crumbles, why put that through the rather sensitive parts of your fuel pump.
I would mount it up front that way you pull a wheel, clamp off your fuel line and change a filter. No laying on your back under the rear of your car.
brad |
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esde
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Posts: 5969
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Common sense should tell us to keep cheap plastic filters away from the ignition system, but some people will continue to argue that their daddy tied the filter directly to the coil wire..
1. Remember that heat causes plastic filters and rubber hoses to dry out and get brittle.
2. Old wires and electrical connections can arc
1+2 is a recipe for fire
I prefer to run a filter just after the tank at the front. I find it is easier to access by simply removing the wheel, in the rear you are reaching over the spring plate and around the heater duct so it is more awkward. |
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