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DorianL
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Joined: June 06, 2013
Posts: 717
Location: Belgium
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 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:00 am Post subject: Stiffening the chassis |
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Dear All,
Looking at a frame off restoration and performance enhancement of a 1971 Ghia.
Planning ahead now... when I have the body off, is there anything I should weld to the chassis to stiffen it up and improve handling?
Thanks!
D. |
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Altema
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Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Is your '71 a coupe or convertible?
Paul |
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djway3474
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Joined: August 19, 2011
Posts: 2582
Location: The Real NDK So Cal
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:16 am Post subject: |
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I saw a guy at the Classic that makes two rails that go under the heather channel sections. You bolt through these rails.
You can also replace the heater channels with 2x3 square steel.
but unless you are doing some major road racing the stock design should be fine |
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DorianL
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2013
Posts: 717
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Altema wrote: |
Is your '71 a coupe or convertible?
Paul |
Thanks!!!!
It's a hard top.
No major racing - just want a fun, nimble car that has a performance feel to its handling. |
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KGCoupe
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Joined: July 01, 2005
Posts: 3580
Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm guessing that the fact that every body panel seam other than those around the trunk, doors and deck lid are welded and leaded in probably adds a fair amount of extra rigidity to the coupe body. |
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Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| DorianL wrote: |
It's a hard top.
No major racing - just want a fun, nimble car that has a performance feel to its handling. |
If you are going to be replacing the rockers, then you can add the reinforcements on each side from the convertible which go inside the rocker assembly to add strength. If you are not replacing the rockers, then the bolt ons that djway3474 mentioned can be used. But like he also said, the stock chassis is pretty strong. Matter of fact, it's stronger than a vette chassis. The movie Fast and Furious 5 has a scene where a vette is jumped off a train and run through the desert. During movie production, they found that an actual Corvette was not strong enough for the stunts, so they built a look-alike using a Volkswagen air cooled chassis instead. If I recall correctly, they used a VW Thing and put their custom vette body on that. The Beetle, Ghia, and Thing use the same chassis, and the Thing and Ghia even use the same floor pans. In the movie, you can see the rear air vents and even see the rear engine when they jump it off a cliff.
So, unless you are going all out racing, you will be ok, and you can add the bolt ons just for good measure. What you will want to change is the suspension bushings. All new bushings everywhere. Polyurethane bushings will tighten things up further, but be forewarned that they do not come with enough of the special nasty grease, so you will want to order a container of the stuff. They are notorious for squeaking and will drive you crazy if you are shy with the grease. Polyurethane bushings have less "give" than rubber bushings, and keep the suspension components from twisting out of alignment during hard handling. I kept rubber up front and use poly in back, and the car handling is fine past 100mph. New ball joints are in order unless yours are perfect, and a good steering box in proper adjustment is mandatory. The Bently manual even tells you how to test it to make sure it's not too tight, and you can use a Porsche box which has a quicker ratio. If you do swap your steering box, make certain the arm and the splines on the main shaft are clean, and torque the box attachment bolts and the main steering arm bolt according to specs. "Seems about right" will not cut it here, and any freeplay will make the steering vague. I've seen steering arms that felt tight, but when the weight of the car on on the wheels, they would deflect up and down and do weird things with the steering geometry. And speaking of torque, the rear axle nuts must be torqued properly or else it will handle like the rear end is riding on sand. If you do plan on a lot of freeway driving or high speed use (time trials or top speed runs at one of the sanctioned timing events, not "I gotta get back with the beer before the guys leave" type of runs, lol), then you should use caster shims which will add high speed stability.
I'm sure some of other guys can chime in on the stuff I overlooked.
Paul
Last edited by Altema on Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Altema
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Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| KGCoupe wrote: |
| I'm guessing that the fact that every body panel seam other than those around the trunk, doors and deck lid are welded and leaded in probably adds a fair amount of extra rigidity to the coupe body. |
Yes, that is correct. And the roof, despite the thin A and C pillars, adds a lot. I don't know if you recall the Pontiac Trans Am from the 80's, but the body/chassis strength on those were marginal with the full roof. With the factory "T" tops, there would be problems when guys stepped up the performance, and the "T" tops sometimes popped out while driving due to chassis flex. Cutting large sections of the roof out weakened the overall structure...
Paul |
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SoCalJes
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Joined: November 02, 2011
Posts: 1093
Location: Broward, FL
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Also didn't help that they had switched away from full frames
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Jesse
71 Ghia
______________________________________
Just because it didn't come that way, doesn't mean it shouldn't have. |
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DorianL
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2013
Posts: 717
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Thanks gents... this is awesome!!!
Seems like the reinforcement bars are not overly necessary. This really is for street use and will see little if any track time. But I do live in Europe and my other car is a BMW 1 series with an M Pack. SO I guess I am used to firm, sharply tuned suspensions.
Polyurethane all around. Balljoints if needed. Increase caster a degree or so with shims. Fast steering box - I'll test drive the Ghia to see, but seems likely that I'd want it in there.
While the body is off, is there anything else I should do?
Are there particular shocks or coils that should be installed?
Is stock ride height just fine? (I will be putting on larger diam rims with lower profile tires)
The Ghia I have my eye on will be a 1971. So front disk. Should anything be done to the brakes?
Sorry for all the questions... Details not necessary, really. I am just trying to get a mental grip on how I want to proceed. 
D |
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DorianL
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2013
Posts: 717
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:28 am Post subject: |
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I am going to try to emulate this look:
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Marfa61KG
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Joined: July 15, 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Marfa, Texas
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DorianL
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2013
Posts: 717
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Awesome!!!! THANKSSSSSSS |
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DorianL
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2013
Posts: 717
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Heeeey, isn't FJCamper the fellow who has that "Little Karmann Coupe" video????
He's smiling on every pic!!!! Big genuine smile. That video played a large part in giving me the bug. No pun intended  |
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Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, I was looking for that same article
Paul |
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Marfa61KG
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Marfa, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Altema wrote: |
Thanks, I was looking for that same article
Paul |
You are welcome. I found the link on this site! Credit the collective memory of TheSamba! |
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Rome
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 9653
Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:51 am Post subject: |
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This should also help. I bought a Bugpack set years ago for my '77 std. Beetle but never put them on.
In Europe:
http://www.csp-shop.com/products/Products/Front_Axle/12657b/det/
In the USA:
http://www.piersideparts.net/CSP498001111A.html
The front axle beam is attached to the chassis' frame head with 4 bolts located about 12" apart. These stiffeners mount to the beam about 3-4" outboard of the original bolts, adding a "triangulation" effect. The rear end of each bar mounts to the large 10mm bolts at each front corner of the pan, which fasten up into the outer edge of the front bulkhead of the body.
If you can read German, I found this book years ago which provides alot of helpful information-
http://www.amazon.de/bücher/dp/3928593005 |
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Mr.Ghia lover
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 1
Location: Irwindale
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Stiffening the chassis |
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| So I have a question for anybody. I have a 65 coupe, that I cut the top off way back when, for a chop top project. I even got a chassis off a convertible and restored it ,thinking the strength came from the chassis. Well, come to find out it's in the body. So now that I've spent 1000's of $$ doing a bunch of metal work to my body, how do I go about reinforcing either the body or pan? Or both so I dont have issues with it flexing or bending? It's not gonna be a strip car, but I plan on putting a good size motor in it, so i cant say i wont race it here or there. But I really dont want to go out and buy another ghia body and start over. Anyway, any advice is much appreciated. |
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jeffrey8164 
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 3818
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Stiffening the chassis |
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| Mr.Ghia lover wrote: |
| So I have a question for anybody. I have a 65 coupe, that I cut the top off way back when, for a chop top project. I even got a chassis off a convertible and restored it ,thinking the strength came from the chassis. Well, come to find out it's in the body. So now that I've spent 1000's of $$ doing a bunch of metal work to my body, how do I go about reinforcing either the body or pan? Or both so I dont have issues with it flexing or bending? It's not gonna be a strip car, but I plan on putting a good size motor in it, so i cant say i wont race it here or there. But I really dont want to go out and buy another ghia body and start over. Anyway, any advice is much appreciated. |
Weld in a roll cage is probably easiest.
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Turning owners into mechanics since 1938.
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swavananda
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2009
Posts: 889
Location: Can o' Scruz
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| Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Stiffening the chassis |
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Some angle steel or square stock run along under the pan bolts channel would do it. I remember seeing before, an auto cross coupe with this mod , also with an X cross members welded between them for serious stiffness .
The cabriolet stiffener is only a 18 gauge '' [ '' addition in the rocker panel/ heater channel section. |
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NOVA Airhead
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Joined: July 20, 2005
Posts: 5221
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| SoCalJes wrote: |
| Also didn't help that they had switched away from full frames |
Firebirds never had full frame construction. The early cars were a combination of unibody and frame construction. From the firewall back they were unibody. Ahead of the firewall it had a subframe. It borrowed heavily from the Chevy II.
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