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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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 Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'm agreeing with this, got access to another light just for kicks?
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| If your timing light has the "crank in the centrifical advance function", is it indeed at "0"? Are you clipped on the wire as close to the #1 spark plug as you can get? |
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BusBerd
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2005
Posts: 834
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
I'm agreeing with this, got access to another light just for kicks?
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| If your timing light has the "crank in the centrifical advance function", is it indeed at "0"? Are you clipped on the wire as close to the #1 spark plug as you can get? |
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My timing light has no "functions". It is just a gun light with two leads for the battery and one that clips over the #1 spark plug wire.
But maybe I will do the "buy and return" of another timing light just to make sure I am not getting a faulty reading. That would be awesome of it was just a timing light issue.
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission
Last edited by BusBerd on Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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For your information, VW used a spacer washer behind the fan on engines that were not set up for AC.
Don't have a clue on your timing at this point.  |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| BusBerd wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
I'm agreeing with this, got access to another light just for kicks?
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| If your timing light has the "crank in the centrifical advance function", is it indeed at "0"? Are you clipped on the wire as close to the #1 spark plug as you can get? |
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My timing light has no "functions". It is just a gun light with two leads for the battery and one that clips over the #1 spark plug wire.
But maybe I will do the "buy and return" of another timing light just to make sure I am not getting a faulty reading. That would be awesome of it was just a timing light issue. |
As much as I pity the poor retailer you visit it would be interesting to establish a baseline and confirm your light is working properly. The only other thing that I've seen causing timing to be way off (or at least only run good that way) is a massive vacuum leak somewhere in the manifold.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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BusBerd
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2005
Posts: 834
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| The only other thing that I've seen causing timing to be way off (or at least only run good that way) is a massive vacuum leak somewhere in the manifold. |
really. massive vacuum leak. and it would still run fairly smooth with the timing way advanced??
I will look for a vacuum leak.
when I was trying to get it started and it backfired a few times, a small spark came out of one of the manifold pipes at the plenum. Maybe it tore the tubing.
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:20 am Post subject: |
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If it were me, I would be looking at all of the hoses including the big S boot and anything plugged into it.
Does it run crappy?
Have you tried putting the timing light on the other spark plug wires and seeing what happens?
Have you tried putting in a set of points to see if that changes anything? |
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| BusBerd wrote: |
I actually had some time tonight so I went at it.
I took the fan pulley off (which required taking off a lot of other stuff.) and determined that the fan was indeed indexed correctly. My bus originally had AC (now gone) so there is a pulley behind the fan. I tried installing the fan without that pulley behind it, but the fan then binds to the fan housing and the fan will not turn. It need the unused AC pulley there as a spacer.
So I indexed the fan correctly again with the AC pulley behind it.
I also tried to find TDC a little more accurately and it does indeed put the indexing notch on the fan somewhere near 1 o'clock.
I don't understand. How can it be that far off. The cam or crank cannot jump out of sync unless you crack the case, right? I only went down to the pistons and cylinders. |
I would mark that spot on the pulley and use the degree band to set the timing at 28 degrees and call it fixed. The pulley can come off the fan - maybe it got put back on in the wrong place.
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Skoolieman
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Joined: January 31, 2011
Posts: 573
Location: Chattanooga TN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Out of curiousity, why would a vacuum leak affect this? I am working on a similiar issue on a 1600dp and it is only running well when I have it advanced quite a bit, however, when I had it where it used to run well, it would gasp upon acceleration, similiar to a vacuum leak.
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'69 Westfalia Camper~Cassidy
1600dp with H30/31 carb 009 distributor and alternator conversion |
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BusBerd
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2005
Posts: 834
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
If it were me, I would be looking at all of the hoses including the big S boot and anything plugged into it.
Does it run crappy?
Have you tried putting the timing light on the other spark plug wires and seeing what happens?
Have you tried putting in a set of points to see if that changes anything? |
It doesn't run too bad actually. I drove it for about 20 mins yesterday and the CHT gauge got to about 340. But it is difficult to get the timing exact.
Been thinking about this "massive vacuum leak" or "faulty timing light" idea. As much as i would like for one of those to be the issue, I don't think it is. If when engine is off, I find TDC and the notch on the fan is somewhere around 1 o'clock. Then a vacuum leak is not going to change when the #1 piston is at its height.
unfortunately.
So it seems to me (correct me if I am wrong) that it can only be an indexing issue with either the cam/crank or with the fan hub. Since it is running fairly smooth, that seems to me to point more to the fan hub. Because if it were a cam/crank indexing issue then valves would be opening at the wrong times and such. (right?)
Is it possible to remove the fan hub with the engine in??
... now doing more research on removal and installation of fan hub today...
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission |
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Desertbusman
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Joined: June 03, 2005
Posts: 14655
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Use Wildthings OIL method, and do it accurately to find #1 TDC.
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71 Superbug
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BusBerd
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Joined: November 19, 2005
Posts: 834
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Desertbusman wrote: |
| Use Wildthings OIL method, and do it accurately to find #1 TDC. |
link?
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission |
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Desertbusman
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Joined: June 03, 2005
Posts: 14655
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Ask Wildthings.
All the methods to do T-1's are a waste of time except the one method (using a stop) however that method won't work on T-4's because the plug holes are on an angle. Wildthings oil method at first seemed pretty honky although doing the math shows how accurate it is. I don't do T-4's so havn't personally tried it.
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BusBerd
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2005
Posts: 834
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Desertbusman wrote: |
Ask Wildthings.
All the methods to do T-1's are a waste of time except the one method (using a stop) however that method won't work on T-4's because the plug holes are on an angle. Wildthings oil method at first seemed pretty honky although doing the math shows how accurate it is. I don't do T-4's so havn't personally tried it. |
found it: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=409853&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I have tried something similar with plugging the spark plug hole with my finger to feel when the air pressure changes. But this oil method allows for visual inspection.
Also, I have been reading up a bit and I am wondering if maybe the woodruff key on the fan hub has slipped or worn away allowing the hub to be out of sync with the crank. Here is a link about fixing a woodruff key issue (good pics): http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=511962
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission |
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Desertbusman
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Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Air and a finger will get you somewhere within the remote ballpark. Accurately using the oil will/can/should get it dead nuts.
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| BusBerd wrote: |
| Desertbusman wrote: |
Ask Wildthings.
All the methods to do T-1's are a waste of time except the one method (using a stop) however that method won't work on T-4's because the plug holes are on an angle. Wildthings oil method at first seemed pretty honky although doing the math shows how accurate it is. I don't do T-4's so havn't personally tried it. |
found it: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=409853&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I have tried something similar with plugging the spark plug hole with my finger to feel when the air pressure changes. But this oil method allows for visual inspection.
Also, I have been reading up a bit and I am wondering if maybe the woodruff key on the fan hub has slipped or worn away allowing the hub to be out of sync with the crank. Here is a link about fixing a woodruff key issue (good pics): http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=511962 |
Your search skills are very impressive 
The fan hub can be removed with the engine in place, put some thin wrenches or flat bar between the hub and case and tighten the bolts,,,,,,,,pop! just be sure whatever you use has a wide bearing area against the case so you don't F' up the lip of the seal recess.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
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BusBerd
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2005
Posts: 834
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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damn.
woodruff key looks good. no signs of slipping.
I'll post pics a little later tonight.
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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What does this mean?
| Quote: |
| I find TDC and the notch on the fan is somewhere around 1 o'clock |
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BusBerd
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2005
Posts: 834
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
What does this mean?
| Quote: |
| I find TDC and the notch on the fan is somewhere around 1 o'clock |
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that means when I find TDC on #1 cylinder the notch on the fan is at about 1 o'clock (if the fan were a clock.)
As I was showering up after taking the fan hub off I was thinking of all the things I have done to this engine and where I could have gone wrong in the partial rebuild. I don't care about looking like an idiot here. I am NOT a mechanic. I am learning as i go and mistakes are part of the learning process for me.
That said: I think I might have hit on something! The fan hub and everything looks good so I was trying to think what else I have done to make my engine nice and smooth running. WELL, I took the fan apart and sand blasted it clean. So I am thinking that when I put it back together, perhaps I put the pulley on the fan one screw off so that my timing marks are off by that much. I don't have time to check it now, but I am thinking that this makes a lot of sense. If I remember right, that pulley can be put on a number of different ways. I think I might have f'ed it up. I hope I did, anyway.
Might not get back to it til tomorrow. I'll post the results.
Thanks again guys!
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Well you might be on to something there. I did not realize you had taken the fan apart. Note to self: Never take apart the fan and if you do scribe witness lines.
When the #1 and #3 cylinder are at TDC, the notch on the fan should be about 11 o'clock or where ever it lines up with "0" on the timing scale. There are no options.
By the way, when you do re-install the fan, after you torque the center bolt to the correct foot pounds (with Locktite Red or Blue on the bolt), give that center bolt a good hard thump with a hammer and a punch and then re-torque it to the spec. If that bolt comes out of there, your crankshaft will likely be toast. We don't want that to happen. |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Intriguing development.....hmmmmm. You've got a 1 in 4 chance it's right so line up the middle notch like Ratwell shows and put the ring on with the mark near the timing scale.
Now.....how do you propose to align and balance the fan after reassembly?
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Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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