Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Billet heads
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
-Alex77-
Samba Member


Joined: December 09, 2008
Posts: 424
Location: Finland
-Alex77- is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:40 am    Post subject: Billet heads Reply with quote

I am working 3D version of vw billet head.


Plan is to offer bare heads with

-94 or 4" bore

-Stock headstudspacing or wasser 88x83mm studspacing.

-heat treated aluminum

-Cosworth style intake ports,

-Large fullwidth rockerpad

-NGK D8EA plugs fits

-Spring pocket OD 36mm, ID 16.8mm

-10 mainfins

-Throughboles for coolingair

-Max valvesizes around 52x40 for 4" bore

-Max valvesizes around 50x38 for 94 bore

-Custom features possibly available, 6-studding, 54x40 valvesizes, dual plugs etc.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




[/img]
_________________
Lasercut parts and CAD design


Last edited by -Alex77- on Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:06 am; edited 4 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
CLKWRK
Samba Member


Joined: October 02, 2001
Posts: 558
Location: Montreal
CLKWRK is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always wondered why no one points the exhaust ports downward on a custom type 1 head, like a type 4 cylinder head.
Seems like there is a missed opportunity to add more cooling surface area.
_________________
1971 ghia build:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=336744&start=0
Type 4 upright build:
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=134056
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey


Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9519
Location: Southern Maryland
miniman82 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How you gonna get around the pushrod tubes?
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747

Glenn wrote:
satterley_sr wrote:

I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


Welcome to the Samba.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Quokka42
Samba Member


Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3115
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Quokka42 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I wondered about the through drilling, too. This kind of depth is a problem for most CNC. Though I suppose you could actually just leave the outside of the exhaust ports open, as they don't actually need cooling themselves.

Changing too much from the original design opens up a whole world of engineering issues to allow for expansion, cooling and tension though so be careful - maybe the CB 044 idea of adding a heap of metal around the combustion chamber will help you out there.

Just my 2c. I don't recall the stud spacing, but I'm sure it's here on the Samba if you search.
_________________
There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck.
I made 2 sets using 6065 and 7075. The 6065 melted and the 7075 corroded and delaminated.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by Jimmy111 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Jeff_Birt
Samba Member


Joined: June 06, 2012
Posts: 315
Location: Rolla MO, United States
Jeff_Birt is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah 'billet' the magical automotive metal. So why would a 'billet' head be superior to a cast one? I'm not trying to pick on the OP but I do get annoyed at how putting the word billet in front of something makes it automatically better.

(For those who don't know a billet is just a large chuck of metal that you machine something from.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mxracer
Samba Member


Joined: April 09, 2011
Posts: 565
Location: NC
mxracer is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff_Birt wrote:
Ah 'billet' the magical automotive metal. So why would a 'billet' head be superior to a cast one? I'm not trying to pick on the OP but I do get annoyed at how putting the word billet in front of something makes it automatically better.

(For those who don't know a billet is just a large chuck of metal that you machine something from.)


A billet "chunk of metal" (in this case aluminum) is either forged or formed using continuous extrusion, either of which is stronger than cast since either process produces a finer, stronger, more uniform grain structure than casting does.

Similarly forged cranks, pistons etc. are stronger and "better" than cast.
_________________
I do line boring (TruLine) and machine work. Shoot me a PM if you need something done.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not true MX racer.
Dont confues forged steel with forged aluminum. Completly different animals.
A forged steel part comes from a previously rolled, grain refined bar of steel.
Aluminum extrusions arent forged. They are for the most part castings with large grain size. Some are further rolled for added strength. But the strength is linear and in the long direction only. Castings may have lower ultimate strength but they have hig compressive and expansive strength so they deal better with shock and thermal cycling.
A extrusion is a lousy material for a part such as a cylinder head.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
mxracer
Samba Member


Joined: April 09, 2011
Posts: 565
Location: NC
mxracer is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree Jimmy...my statement was way to broad.

Agree that aluminum billets are rarely forged and are for the most part rolled, and all start out as a cast ingot.

I do stand behind the statement that a billet (when further processed via extrusion) is stronger than a pure cast.

I also can't argue with the statement that the cast is better for ACVW heads.
_________________
I do line boring (TruLine) and machine work. Shoot me a PM if you need something done.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
CLKWRK
Samba Member


Joined: October 02, 2001
Posts: 558
Location: Montreal
CLKWRK is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah now I see the problem
_________________
1971 ghia build:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=336744&start=0
Type 4 upright build:
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=134056
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes.
But most of the extruded billet out there is not rolled. It is extruded only. Finding rolled billet is difficult unless you order it from the mill yourself or have access to a forge or aerospace company that stocks it for their own use and just happens to have the right size you need.

This is what makes things like forged pistons better than cast. They start out as a grain refined piece of billet, are heated almost to the hot shortness point then pressed into a mold. It is not the forging process itself that makes them better. It is the superior form of the aluminum that was started out with. The grain size of the forged piston is much longer and uniform than the cast one. The cast one will slowly cool from liquid to solid and have small grains on the outside and in small profiles and large grains in the thick sections. The forged one will almost instantanious go from solid to liquid then back to solid with little change in structure. The structure will almost be the same as the billet you started out with.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
mark tucker
Samba Member


Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 20167
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
mark tucker is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

everytime somebody says billet!! my bank account gets smaller. so how about a forgeing a head.
nice pic jimmy, where is the rest!!? wish I still had cnc equipment at my fingertips. darn life gets in the way of fun.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mark tucker
Samba Member


Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 20167
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
mark tucker is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miniman82 wrote:
How you gonna get around the pushrod tubes?
move the pushrod over.... but I dont see any advantage to just moving the port to aim downward.just give it a better smaller port&wider header.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
-Alex77-
Samba Member


Joined: December 09, 2008
Posts: 424
Location: Finland
-Alex77- is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, there is few type 4 heads with type 1 exhaust. Type 1 exhaust is not that bad, just not well cooled around it on some heads..


Here is basic all necessary dimensions containing drawing:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Lasercut parts and CAD design
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 19899
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CLKWRK wrote:
I have always wondered why no one points the exhaust ports downward on a custom type 1 head, like a type 4 cylinder head.
Seems like there is a missed opportunity to add more cooling surface area.


Where? through the pushrods or through the head stud?
The angleflow is not a bad idea. The shorter the port then less heat it absorbs, as the motorcycle crowd has always known, but then again you still have to have enough material around there to keep it stable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mark tucker
Samba Member


Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 20167
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
mark tucker is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks nice, but fix the ex port, fill the floor atleast1/4 angled at the same as the valve angle.you could fill it about half and raise the roof a bit & widen it some too. befor you go to wacking make it as good as it can be.add teardrops on both sides of all guides so the charges blend back togeather. dont leave any thing on the table or to chance . you could also change the valve angle a few degrees less too. do all your homework,dont make something that is already out there that needs reworked. have fun and getter done. I miss that kind of work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Der6VoltFahrers
Samba Member


Joined: April 15, 2009
Posts: 81
Location: Hannover Germany
Der6VoltFahrers is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice Copy from Thorstens heads Laughing

http://bugfans.de/forum/wbx-fremdmotoren/7er-wbx-luft-fur-das-weisze-ungetum-t2693.html

Itīs a german forum, but many pictures of the beautiful built heads. Seem to look very similar, except that Thorstens heads have WBX stud pattern.

Greetings from Hannover

Mario
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
-Alex77-
Samba Member


Joined: December 09, 2008
Posts: 424
Location: Finland
-Alex77- is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, not really a copy, because we could offer two bore and port sizes, 6 studding and exhaust is normal and height of the head is standard Wink

Basically just another cosworth port head with lots of fins Wink


I started desing these last summer before found Thorstens heads to my engine and i got the updated version of Thorstens head, much better now intake port.





Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Lasercut parts and CAD design
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Der6VoltFahrers
Samba Member


Joined: April 15, 2009
Posts: 81
Location: Hannover Germany
Der6VoltFahrers is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just kidding, looks good Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
-Alex77-
Samba Member


Joined: December 09, 2008
Posts: 424
Location: Finland
-Alex77- is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'v been suggested by professional head porter to use calculated valve positions for both bores, 94mm and 101.6mm, but then again, the result may be that stock style rockers dont fit:



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




I would use this spacing on both heads, just to give possibility that you dont have to build totally new valvetrain.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Lasercut parts and CAD design
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 1 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB