Help me solve this starter problem... Ay dios mio!

[Swellchaser]

Just when you think you are all good.. a new problem comes into the picture.

Car starts perfectly when it has not been running for a while, however, after a drive it is having problems starting.

Turn Key,
Battery Sounds like it's dead... vrrrr vrrrr, can hear a buzz (starter or fuel pump).. engine turns over after pumping the gas several times.. but won't "catch" and start running. The engine sounds fuel starved..

If i go through the ignition processing several times, pumping the gas a bunch.. it MAY finally catch and start up.. but each time it sounds like the battery is draining more.

So I'm thinking.. ok battery is dying.. alternator not work? NOPE.. I checked the alternator earlier today and it's giving me about 13.8V on Lights and Stereo load.

I checked the battery after the last time I had the starting issue and the battery was 12. 7V

I do have a starter relay installed.. but I don't think that's the problem. The only thing I can think is changing the fuel filter (could be getting blocked) however this does not make sense of why the battery sounds like its dead/dying.

Going camping next weekend.. hopefully I can resolve this soon. Any help is appreciated. Thanks guys! (sorry about the poor use of the various terminology)
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1980 Westfalia

[Swellchaser]

Tried starting it again after letting it sit for about an hour and it started just fine. Needed to pump a little more than normal. Turned it on and off about 5 times with no issues. Looking like it could be a hot start issue.. although it's not that hot around these parts at the moment (Vancouver).. Smelled a bit like gas when I stepped out of the van.. but let's not even consider that.. could of been the skunk that was strolling by..
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1980 Westfalia

[Wildthings]

Probably time to remove and clean your battery cables and engine ground strap, and maybe do the FI grounds as well.

[desertrefugee]

I've seen a couple of folks mention lately that more accelerator "pumping" than usual was needed to get started. Actually, with a fuel injected engine (like our waterboxers) pumping does nothing.

Pumping the pedal helped years ago with carbureted engines when that pumping yielded squirts of fuel from the accelerator pump.

Might be a good time to verify fuel pressure, flow and injector health - if charging and/or starter issues aren't at play.
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- 83.5 Westfalia - 2.2 GoWesty "power"
- a bunch of vintage motorcycles
- Numerous telescopes of various size and function

"For I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." - Sarah Williams

[Tobias Duncan]

Could be heat soaked starter. Ground straps or pos cable also likely.

[ColoradoWesty82]

Sounds like we are having similar issues. Just yesterday I replaced the fuel pump and filter as well as installed a new relay kit. Car is running better and the new pump so much quieter, but still a hot start situation.

I am going to try a new battery even though the PO stated it was new and it looks new, but maybe just not sending enough juice.

Good luck! Let us know if you find a solution!!

[Wildthings]

Useful to know the voltage at the battery and at the starter while your are actually cranking the battery. A poorer but still useful substitute is to check the battery voltage before and then right after you have cranked the engine for several 10 second tries.

[Swellchaser]

Thanks everyone.. looks like it's time to get out the sandpaper... cleaning the starter contacts should be fun.. when it's pouring rain for the next 5 days. I wish there was some sort of community auto garage in Vancouver.
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1980 Westfalia

[MarkWard]

While it is raining. Do a search on Hot Start Pulse Relay VW. The vanagon was not fitted with one, but you might be able to add one. Basically, it pulses the cold start valve while cranking. This is similar to pumping the pedal on a carb vehicle. You get a little fuel into the plenum for cranking. This is a bandaid to the real problem, but might be a reasonable alternative if the van runs fine otherwise.

When the engine is cold, the cold start valve will spray because of the thermal time switch. You don't get that help with a warm engine.
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[kbeefy]

+1 for cleaning and checking connections
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86 syncro CHC, NorthWesty subbie 2.5, decoupler, locker, custom interior, 225/75r16 Duratrack's on CLK's, Toyo cabin heater, ARB fridge, 300w Zamp Solar, Gowesty bumpers/skid/rails, Fiama awning

'86 Syncro Westy. Stock for now.

2000 F350 7.3 CC LB 11' Northland Cabover

2006 Subbie OBXT

2002 Tacoma DoubleCab 4x4

1969 Mustang Basket Case 351c/FMX/9

http://kbeefy.blogspot.com/

[Swellchaser]

Cleaned the ground at the battery box and a ground from the relay box on the left side of the engine. Cleaned what terminals I could see.

I'm not entirely sure if this part is right.. but the double relay (metal rectangle connected to the firewall), is this where the fuel injector ground is? The area is pretty corroded but the screw will not come out. busted 3 phillips heads trying to get it out.. but no luck..

1) so.. can I splice into this ground and run it to a better part on the body?

2) How the heck do you get the temp 2 sensor out? Can I disconnect the wire first?

3) Are there any other connections I should clean up?

Didn't get a chance to test it on a long drive, but it did start up.. although battery struggled for a second. I'm going to get an interstate batter tomorrow.
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1980 Westfalia

[pushkick]

i dont know if you mentioned checking the transmission ground to the frame, but i changed mine to a tinned copper wire with insulation. the old one was corroded really bad and was a bare copper wire. i changed my ignition switch. i cleaned my battery negative terminal and where the cable attached to body. this seemed to help the problem. but i stll have the key switch which is worn a little and dosent allow the full movement of the ignition switch.

better to not splice ground wire just run a new one to a different location or drill out your old bolt or screw. make sure you seal the ground connections with liquid electrical tape or dielectric grease after you have they installed.
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i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper

[Tobias Duncan]

+1 on the trans ground. Mine was actually loose. Fixed my hot start issue completely.

[Wildthings]

[Swellchaser]

hmm Transmission ground strap.. can I get to it without a lift/jack?

Good call on the impact driver
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1980 Westfalia

[Swellchaser]

So, problem appeared to be a combination of the starter.. which had a side case screw almost falling out and there was a significant voltage drop between the batter and the transmission.. so the transmission ground strap required changing.


Post i just made on another thread. but figured i would copy it here in case someone was looking for my solution:
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Thanks everyone, I finally bit the bullet and took it into a shop today. I'm leaving for a surf trip tomorrow morning and didn't have time to wait on parts.. and the guys I called did not have it.

I called Van Wonder in North Vancouver this morning, and although it's a pretty busy time for VW's, he said he would take a look at my problem.

He tested the relay and indeed it was malfunctioning, ordered a new one which came later afternoon. Also he tested my transmission block ground and noticed a voltage drop. Then we looked at the hot start problem.. which had all signs pointing to the starter.

So on the same day, he installed a new double relay
Took off the old transmission ground strap and installed a new one
Took out the old starter.. (which had a side screw almost completely out, which explained the hot start and the magnets were lose inside.
Replaced the starter bushing
Checked transmission fluid level
Installed a new starter
Then replaced the points and properly set it.

Only charged me 1.7hrs labour + Parts , and allowed me to stick around and watch and he told me the details of what he was doing and how everything worked. Pretty educational day.

Get into the van, turn the key, and the engine ROARED to life. I have never heard such an amazing sound out of my van. It has so much more power right now, idles cleanly.. feels like a million bucks. No more problems with the fuel pump, or stop/starting. Real test will be this weekend and the long drives, but I'm confident it's going to be working great.
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1980 Westfalia