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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:14 pm Post subject: Yet another Subaru swap question - bigger is better? |
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So I am OK happy with my 93 EJ22 swap. Knock on wood.
I need more go / torque and I am going to hang it out for the crowd:
Here in Cali, if I do not floor it, I got people tailgating me constantly stop light to stop light.
I am happy with third gear and my slight over drive 4th gear for the freeway.
I want to keep my 27 inch 102T tires, too.
I can get a 2000 EJ251 out of a running car with harness and ECU.
My EJ22 is spec'd at:
135 bhp (101 kW) @ 5800 rpm
137 lb·ft (186 N·m) @ 4800 rpm
CR 9.5:1
EJ251:
165 hp (123 kW) @ 5600 RPM
167 ft·lbf (226 N·m) @ 4000 rpm
CR 10:1
The way I read this is that I will have more power earlier. That right?
I think Ben ftp2leta stated you would only notice a difference at higher rpms, though.
This whole deal is going to cost me a couple of thousand dollars minus the other setup which I may use elsewhere.
To those that know this is it worthwhile? Or do I really need to go the Frankenmotor route? NOTE: This EJ251 means I go from OBD I to OBD II, also.
What to do? _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Ideally, you would be at or near max torque at each shift at least in the lower gears. Shifting at 5800rpm yields the following.
Top Speed in 1 gear = 25.354 MPH
And changes into 2 gear at 3161 RPM dropping 2639 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 46.524 MPH
And changes into 3 gear at 3548 RPM dropping 2252 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 76.062 MPH
And changes into 4 gear at 3922 RPM dropping 1878 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 112.486 MPH
Notice you fall below max torque for your current engine when you shift. You are much closer to max torque when shifting into 3rd and 4th with the larger engine. I am using a WBX trans with a generic 27 inch tire to calculate. I know this does not answer your question. markw _________________ ☮️ |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Mark,
That helps. It shows me why 1st and 2nd are such dogs in my van! Also my rev limiter hits around 6300 rpm, it seems, so I have to be careful when mashing the pedal in the lower gears, which I do NOT like to do.
Mind you for sane people driving the setup is just fine. But with all the nut cases in their luxury SUVs and sports cars headed out to their oh so ueberimportant high tech jobs and all the Soccer Moms in their Mormon Assault Vehicles (mini vans) riding my ass constantly, it is down right dangerous out here in So Cali.
Could you please show the same for the EJ251? Note my 4th gear is 0.82 instead of the usual 0.85.
TIA.
Walt... _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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wasserbox Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2008 Posts: 533 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Yet another Subaru swap question - bigger is better? |
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It could be the fault of the 4EAT, but I've never been impressed with the performance of the NA 2.5. They can barely pull an Outback up the hill - don't see a van doing much better.
You need more turboz. Or the 3.0.
I mean... in for a penny, in for a pound - right? |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Yet another Subaru swap question - bigger is better? |
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wasserbox wrote: |
It could be the fault of the 4EAT, but I've never been impressed with the performance of the NA 2.5. They can barely pull an Outback up the hill - don't see a van doing much better.
You need more turboz. Or the 3.0.
I mean... in for a penny, in for a pound - right? |
I do not have a 4EAT Four-Speed Electronic Automatic Transmission, though!
You are in Colorado, and I am at sea level San Diego, too.
The main issue is getting something other than an EJ2x past the Smog Nazis! So turboz, SVXs, etc are hard to pass. I have access to an SVX window van an it practically can do wheelies and eats transmissions from time to time, too, along with rotten gas miliage. Turbo would be nice, but that is a toughie out here......sadly....
So I need to decide if the EJ251 will be worth the effort, even if just some what better, I guess. _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Are you limiting yourself to just those engine choices, or are other options possible? I can think of two that would remedy the situation and stand a good chance of making it past the referees. I'd name them, but I don't want to be that guy. I get in trouble when I'm that guy _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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1.8T for you Cali folk |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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All that are on the table are my current 93 EJ22, 2000 EJ251 or Frankenmotor. _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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GoWestyYoungMan Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2011 Posts: 150 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Do some searching and reading on these, including ECU reprogramming:
subaruoutback.org
legacygt.com
I bought a used '96 OB for daily driver and will you the Syncro on vacations only.
I bought new dealer longblock 2.2 Eng for swap after my 2.1 wbx finally quits.I will have a professional do the ECU reprogramming...there is one in SD county but don't have it at this time.[/u] |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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I would go with the EJ251, Walt. As you know that is what I am running with my Subaru 5MT conversion and it has all the power you could ever want. The torque peak is still pretty high at 4000 rpms, but that doesn't tell the whole story. There is plenty of torque from about 2500 rpms upward. My experience has been that the EJ25 is significantly more powerful than an early EJ22, FWIW.
D |
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GoWestyYoungMan Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2011 Posts: 150 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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There are HG problems with 2.5 Engines mfg before 2002...
See websites above. |
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syncrodoka Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005 Posts: 11998 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Swap in the MLS headgasket before the engine is installed and it isn't a issue any longer. |
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J Charlton Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007 Posts: 1544 Location: The True North Strong and Free
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:04 pm Post subject: engines |
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insyncro wrote: |
1.8T for you Cali folk :wink: |
or 1.9 TDI - chip it up for all the power you want. _________________ NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 3 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 5 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2023 |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: engines |
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J Charlton wrote: |
insyncro wrote: |
1.8T for you Cali folk |
or 1.9 TDI - chip it up for all the power you want. |
Just look at the torque curve for both those engines...'nuff said _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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tschroeder0 Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2008 Posts: 2096 Location: Boulder CO
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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I have the late 1999 2.2 with 142hp, in my fully loaded weekender with dog, one kiddo, girlfriend and gear I would say it is adequate for all that we do, which includes a lot of mountain passes.
that said, I think if I had it to do over again, I would go with a 2.5, the extra hp/tourque would get you up to speed faster and I think you would still end up with the same mileage. (I get about 22 cruising) |
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NorCalbuggy Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2006 Posts: 126 Location: Tracy, California
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe I haven't looked at enough Subaru swap threads... but I thought I was stuck with just the EJ22 in a manual trans. van here in Calif.?
(Unless I can get my hands on one of Mr Clymer's reversed transmissions) _________________ "Steam seems to have killed all gratitude in the hearts of sailors"
1987 Westfalia Vanagon - "Clifford" |
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nemobuscaptain Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 3874
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GoWestyYoungMan Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2011 Posts: 150 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Expert tuner in Oceanside
crawfordperformance.com |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: engines |
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Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
J Charlton wrote: |
insyncro wrote: |
1.8T for you Cali folk |
or 1.9 TDI - chip it up for all the power you want. |
Just look at the torque curve for both those engines...'nuff said |
Subarus are awesome and we all know I have my fair share of experience with them, BUT, my eyes have been opened to another conversion that is making me wish I paid attention to it sooner.
I am not referring to any diesel swap either. |
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nemobuscaptain Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 3874
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