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58Dub Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 1713 Location: Davison, MI
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Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:27 am Post subject: 3x3 arm question |
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As I try to plan some things for my baja build....I'm looking for some general info on 3x3 rear trailing arms. All things staying the same...tires and torsion bars.... how much will a set raise the rear of the car? I know by moving the tire back farther...you increase the leverage on the torsion bar....again...jsut curious approx how much of a change in height I may see.
thanks
Matt _________________ 58 Beetle (now just a pile of parts in the corner)
60 Beetle (2221 turbo under construction)
70 Beetle Baja project |
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DHale_510 Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010 Posts: 378 Location: Nampa Idaho
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Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Short answer: 3". It doesn't mean a thing though.
I measure 16 1/2" from the torsion pivot to the bearing center for either the IRS system or the Swing axle system. You can play with trigonometry to calculate your increased range "all else being equal".
Maybe more to the point than height since these are not Jeeps with low hanging differentials is how much travel you have and what fraction you want up and down. This is much more a function of what shocks, shock mounting, CV choice, and wheel offset than just the longer arm.
Dennis |
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58Dub Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 1713 Location: Davison, MI
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Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:49 am Post subject: |
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DHale_510 wrote: |
Short answer: 3". It doesn't mean a thing though.
I measure 16 1/2" from the torsion pivot to the bearing center for either the IRS system or the Swing axle system. You can play with trigonometry to calculate your increased range "all else being equal".
Maybe more to the point than height since these are not Jeeps with low hanging differentials is how much travel you have and what fraction you want up and down. This is much more a function of what shocks, shock mounting, CV choice, and wheel offset than just the longer arm.
Dennis |
thanks Dennis
Thats sorta what I was thinking. I was looking at Averys Aircooled site, and they said they can set the camber on their arms based on the height of the vehicle. Im just trying to get my mind around how to determine the final height without having the arms already..... sorta the chicken and the egg thing.
Im not looking for any cutting edge build....I was jsut planning on putting 3x3s, 930 cvs, a 002/091 trans and probably 31 tires. I know I will also need to decide to go with larger torsion bars or jsut go to a coil over shock for the rear. Trying to keep things simple, for trail rides, would larger torsions bars work ok? or is it worth stepping up to the coil over shocks? _________________ 58 Beetle (now just a pile of parts in the corner)
60 Beetle (2221 turbo under construction)
70 Beetle Baja project |
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bajamike560 Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2009 Posts: 544 Location: Vancouver WA
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Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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I would step up to the coil over shocks, less headache in the long run.
Also the cost difference at the end will not be all that much difference.
Mike _________________ Jackpot motorsports |
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58Dub Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 1713 Location: Davison, MI
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Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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bajamike560 wrote: |
I would step up to the coil over shocks, less headache in the long run.
Also the cost difference at the end will not be all that much difference.
Mike |
Thanks Mike... Any recommendations on a reasonably priced rear coil over shock setup? _________________ 58 Beetle (now just a pile of parts in the corner)
60 Beetle (2221 turbo under construction)
70 Beetle Baja project |
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DHale_510 Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010 Posts: 378 Location: Nampa Idaho
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Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I just went out and measured 4 cars to try to help here. All are torsion sprung rears. I have measured the height at the jack hole or the lower torsion cover bolt, this is about the lowest point on the cars, and it is an easy place to measure.
I am running rear torsions on everything. The mega build has coilovers in front and is ready for them in the back. Since I have redone the rear for the second time after the big build, I doubt they are cheaper, but the cage work need to mount them cost way more than the difference. I was building the cage anyway so I don't really remember the decision. Maybe I just wanted to get those great King Kong inner torsion mounts and use them. I also like the reserviors attached to the shock better than the hose stuff. It was that kind of project, and 25 years in the planning.
Every build is totally different, and that is the fun. Simple answers are not simple.
1. My 1967 build 1961 convertible Baja has stock 23mm torsions and a bolt in cage with no suspension reinforcements. A very cheap built that I did when very young. It is a bit rough but has served long and well. It needs more rear spring, always did. Tried Spax coil overload rear shocks for a while, OK springs, crap shocks. When we put paddles on it at Pismo it ate the stock position rear fenders off with stock travel swing arm suspension.
30" tires.
11" height.
2. My under reconstruction 1957/8/70 Baja, stock [??. not sure] torsions in a beefed up stock arm IRS conversion. Suspension reinforced cage with the shocks mounted inside the body.
30" tires.
13" height.
3. My old 1969 Funco Wampusskitty based buggy has stock torsions and still a swing axle. Lots of vintage 1969 type reinforcements. It raced both Baja and Ascot through the 70's mostly as it still is. I added the flames in the 80's as a Pismo toy.
31" desert tires.
12" height.
A picture from Pismo around 1983:
A picture fro BugIn 15 in the 70.s;
4. My recently rebuilt 1961 Baja "with all the tricks". It kinda got out of control once I began. 3x3 arms, full cage with all the tie ins, built to run either torsions or coil overs, I am running torsions. I busted the notched plates on the second or third trip and now have the extra clearance covers. I also twisted the short torsions daily and converted to the long ones. 28mm torsions both times. The long ones are fine.
30" tires.
16" height.
A picture from Dumont at New Years' Day a couple years ago, just before I broke the notched spring plates;
A picture from Lucerne Valley a year before, before I painted everything. Maybe when the spring plates started to go away...
There are a few more pictures in my Samba Gallery section, maybe someday I will add more....
Dennis |
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DHale_510 Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010 Posts: 378 Location: Nampa Idaho
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Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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My problem with notched spring plates:
Dennis |
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