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starter screaming
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JKing'63
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:27 am    Post subject: starter screaming Reply with quote

I put a fresh rebuild in my '63 bug. Had a 1600 SP and put in a 1641 DP.... the motor starts up and drives fine, however when it starts the starter screams once the engine engages.. as if it's still engaging the flywheel, regardless to how fast I release the key.

I removed the starter and put on another old one that I had laying around and I'm still having the same issue...

It never screamed like this with my other engine....

Could it be that it just needs a brand new starter?

Could it be an issue with the flywheel on the new engine?

Could it be something in the starter housing on the transmission?

Any advice helps guys.... thanks
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Harleyelf
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the transmission from '63? If so, it came clearanced for a 6V flywheel, which is smaller in diameter than a 12V. Your starter may be pushing the new flywheel into the bell housing. Take the motor out and look for freshly cut metal in the bell housing.

The cheapest fix is to go with a 6V flywheel and starter; it will work fine on 12V as long as you release it within ten seconds or so. The correct fix is to have a machine shop cut the bell housing.
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JKing'63
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea if the tranny is original to '63.

I guess pulling the motor is the only option at this point.. was trying to avoid that
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Harleyelf
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You won't have to pull it all the way out. Leave the fan shroud, generator, carburetor, etc, in place. Disconnect the battery, then the wires to the motor, and remove the fuel line from the fuel pump (& plug it). Disconnect the heater control cables and the four mounting bolts, get a floor jack under the drain plug, and the motor will slide back far enough to inspect the bell housing.

If the transmission is swing axle style instead of CV joint IRS, you probably have a 6V bell housing.
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drs1023
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not too hard to clearance the bell housing, but I doubt that's the issue. I recently clearanced another transaxle for the larger flywheel - I have done it a few times because I like the increased surface area of the larger clutch and pressure plate as compared to the "6V versions".

I have never installed a larger flywheel into the smaller bell housing without having to clear it. It just won't fit, so, either the bell housing has already been cleared, or the previous engine was using the 6V flywheel. The pictures show some of the contact points of the larger flywheel in my '63 transmission which had to be ground out. Also notice that I used the auto-stick starter because there's no bushing needed.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A quick guide to clearancing the bell housing:
1) Install the engine with the larger flywheel as far as it will go (level!) and start all the bolts you can - use longer ones on top if needed to just hold the engine in place - DO NOT TIGHTEN the bolts.
2) If you can't turn the engine by the pulley bolt, back it out a smidge and turn the pulley bolt a few times to score the outline of the clearances needed.
3) Tighten the bolts a turn or two and repeat.
4) Tighten the bolts a turn or two and repeat, etc. etc.
5) When the flywheel teeth are inside the bell housing, turn the pulley bolt a couple of good turns to make sure all score marks are in place.
6) Remove the engine and finish clearancing with a die grinder with a coarse bit. Others will tell you that using a grinder may cause sparks, and sparks and magnesium don't play well together.
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JKing'63
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey drs1023. So in your experience the motor wouldn't even mount up to the tranny? because mine mounts up fine and runs and drives....

the only time I hear the scream is right when the motor turns over, and it's real quick... otherwise while it drives I can't hear any problems

If it's not the clearance in the bellhousing, any ideas as to what it might be?
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JKing'63
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think that I would hear the scream constantly if it was a clearance issue in there right?
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Dr OnHolliday
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what does your flywheel ring gear look like? How about the starters? (pics might help).

Sounds like your starter gear is just getting caught and staying engaged with the engine and over-reving. Maybe the starter motor shaft is sticky / grungy and slowing down the disengage?
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HRVW
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idea Okay....we have a 12V (200mm) flywheel on a 1641cc engine in a early 63 bug.....originally a 6V.

Engine fits inside the bell housing means trans was clearance.

Noise (screaming) is actually a growling only heard at first start up and NOT heard when driving means that the starter is a 6V (180mm flywheel) and the flywheel is a (200mm) that needs a 12V starter.

6V flywheel.......109 teeth
12V flywheel......130 teeth

Starter and flywheel need to match or you will have a screaming or growling sound.

VW Mechanic (retired)
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JKing'63
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr OnHolliday wrote:
what does your flywheel ring gear look like? How about the starters? (pics might help).

Sounds like your starter gear is just getting caught and staying engaged with the engine and over-reving. Maybe the starter motor shaft is sticky / grungy and slowing down the disengage?



I'll have to take pictures when I take the starter off again. But yes, I was thinkin the same thing about the shaft just getting stuck, because it definitely sounds like it's just engaging a second too long and then it's off
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JKing'63
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HRVW wrote:
Idea Okay....we have a 12V (200mm) flywheel on a 1641cc engine in a early 63 bug.....originally a 6V.

Engine fits inside the bell housing means trans was clearance.

Noise (screaming) is actually a growling only heard at first start up and NOT heard when driving means that the starter is a 6V (180mm flywheel) and the flywheel is a (200mm) that needs a 12V starter.

6V flywheel.......109 teeth
12V flywheel......130 teeth

Starter and flywheel need to match or you will have a screaming or growling sound.

VW Mechanic (retired)



There's one of my issues, I'm not 100% sure if it's a 12V or 6V flywheel... and my starter is 12V, so that wouldn't be the fix...

Now would a 6V flywheel paired with a 12V starter be causing the scream/growl?
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Harleyelf
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, any mismatch between starter and ring gear will make the starter scream and have difficulty disengaging.

Got a flywheel locking tool? The wide side is for 12V and the shorter side is for 6V. Or you could use a dial caliper to compare the distance between teeth on the flywheel and starter. A 6V starter will work for years on 12V, if you want the no-pull-engine fix. Spins at double speed.
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JKing'63
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no pulling the engine would be my first choice!

so maybe try a 6V starter and see what that does?

and theres an adapter ring or something for 6V/12V in the starter housing I would have to remove right...?
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Harleyelf
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the brass bushing the end of the starter shaft goes into. I'm not sure how to remove & replace it with the engine/transmission installed or if it is possible to modify the 6V starter to fit the 12V bushing.

Autostickshift starters don't use the bushing. You may have the correct bushing already and it could be a contributing factor to the scream
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HRVW
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idea Both the 6V and 12V starters have a floating armature that has to be supported by the bushing in the trans bell housing.

The 6V bushing has a larger ID while the 12V starter end has a smaller dia and will move around thus NOT meshing with the flywheel teeth.

Best bet is the SR17X (auto) starter with no bushing problems to contend with.

VW Mechanic (retired)
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Harleyelf
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if he puts a 6V starter in and the bushing is incorrect, the teeth will not engage because the armature will bang against the bushing and not enter it?

Were there any 6V auto starters made?
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wayne1230cars
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harleyelf wrote:
So if he puts a 6V starter in and the bushing is incorrect, the teeth will not engage because the armature will bang against the bushing and not enter it?

Were there any 6V auto starters made?


I believe there was such a thing, SR13X but not very common at all. Maybe 1966 era??
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JKing'63
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harleyelf wrote:
So if he puts a 6V starter in and the bushing is incorrect, the teeth will not engage because the armature will bang against the bushing and not enter it?

Were there any 6V auto starters made?



this was my thinking as well....

so ultimately, I know I have a 12V starter and bushing... if I have a 6V flywheel on the new motor then I would need a 6V starter to stop that noise... which I can't do...

so I'm guessing the only answer to stop the scream would be to pull the motor and change the flywheel to 12V...?
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HRVW
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idea Smile As a builder of over 1000 VW engines can attest to what would be correct.

The later 1600cc engines 69mm crank will NOT accept the 6V 180mm flywheel with the exception of the 66 transporter which had a 6V 200mm flywheel. The starter gear has to mate with the correct flywheel teeth or it will GROWL.

I made conversions in the early 70's.

A 6V starter needs the correct bushing support for it to work with a 180mm 6V flywheel.

A 12V starter needs the correct bushing support for it to work with a 200mm 12V flywheel.

I have seen a lot of chewed up 6V flywheels because someone converted their 6V car to a 12V system and used a 12V starter damaging the 6V flywheel.
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JKing'63
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess my next step is it pull the motor, again! haha

If I get in there and find that it does have a 12V flywheel then I'm selling the car (haha!) no I'm kidding....

but thanks a lot guys, hopefully I can get this settled
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