Wearing Lifters

[67 cone zone]

I have a question & I need the answer for this problem. I have built thousands of VW engines, but never had this problem. So far two engines maybe three have this problem. The first engine I built two years ago & the other six months ago, the only thing they have in common is that royal purple oil was used. The first engine was a 1641 with k-dogs & the second was a bone stock 1600 SP. I got the lifter from IAP all new parts. The third possible engine is a 1776, when I first got it in I had to adjust the valves every week for four weeks until they got better, I played with the settings & changed the push rods to chome molly. A friend told me ( which I knew ) that you need to run a oil in high zinc, like VR1 I did change my oil on the 1776 & it stopped alot of the valve noise. Now the exception is my squareback which has a 1641 & I have ran every oil I can think of & no problems have occurred. So after all of the above is the lifters the problem or the oil?
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69 OG paint Cal Look Squareback----------------------1977 Porsche 911 Carrera 3.0--------------------------1974 Porsche 911 Carrera - Johnny Miller
Ah the 80's, a simpler time!

[67 cone zone]

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69 OG paint Cal Look Squareback----------------------1977 Porsche 911 Carrera 3.0--------------------------1974 Porsche 911 Carrera - Johnny Miller
Ah the 80's, a simpler time!

[67 cone zone]

e these lifters were in a engine for under a 1000 miles.
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69 OG paint Cal Look Squareback----------------------1977 Porsche 911 Carrera 3.0--------------------------1974 Porsche 911 Carrera - Johnny Miller
Ah the 80's, a simpler time!

[fivelugshortaxle]

Ouch
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[sgmalt46]

what brand lifter? looks like the head broke off!? never seen that

[jfats808]

Its rarely the oil. Whats the combo, dual/single HD, cam choice etc? Most of the time the culprit of failing lifters are improper break in burnishing, cam/lifter incompatibility, excessive spring pressure, or the quality of the lifters themselves.

A few years back my 2017, failed after about 50 miles. SLR OEM German lifters on Engle w125 cam. Properly broke in twice, IAP dual valve springs, Castrol gtx 10w-30 and zddp. In the end, I belive the lifters were too soft and a poor selection by me. Unknowingly.

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[esde]

Hopefully you had a full flow filter setup installed? That's a lot of metal to pump through an engine otherwise

[jfats808]

[Jimmy111]

weak springs and too much rpm.
Beat the crap out of them.
Oil or material issues grind the lifters or cam smooth. They are nice and shiny.

[67 cone zone]

I did use the cam lube & broke the lifters in by keeping the engine at 2000 rpms for ten minutes, all of the engine have single springs & are all different sizes - 1600, 1641 & 1776. The 1641 we drove for two years with no problems, sold the car & in two weeks the lifters were done! the 1600 SP I biult the engine & in 500 miles ish & the lifters were & on the 1776 I thought I had a problem, but it seems fine now. I know the first two were cheapo lifters, but on the 1776 I used CB lifters, but they were $35 ones but those are the ones they said to use. As I said I have biult my share of engine some the write way & some not, but never had this problem.
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69 OG paint Cal Look Squareback----------------------1977 Porsche 911 Carrera 3.0--------------------------1974 Porsche 911 Carrera - Johnny Miller
Ah the 80's, a simpler time!

[67 cone zone]

In responce to oil filter, the 1600 & 1641 did not but the 1776 does & the oil is clean
_________________
69 OG paint Cal Look Squareback----------------------1977 Porsche 911 Carrera 3.0--------------------------1974 Porsche 911 Carrera - Johnny Miller
Ah the 80's, a simpler time!

[HRVW]

A person who has built Thousands of engines is asking for advice/opinion on a open Forum re an engine problem (I would be embarrassed).

[jfats808]

[Quokka42]

I wouldn't be embarrassed. People who are willing to learn end up more knowledgeable than those who think they know everything. I'm not even embarrassed that I don't know the answer to his question. Incorrect cam lube or insufficient ZDDP in the breakin oil accelerate wear, but I've never seen lifters like that in such a short amount of time so I'd lean toward the lifter material or treatment being insufficient. But he seems to be saying it has happened with two different makes of lifter?
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[Glenn73]

Is it a new or old case?
If it is a new case how true are the lifter bores?
I don't know for sure but if they aren't perpendicular to the cam would that cause this kind of failure?
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[modok]

When a lifter has lost it's crown it is worn out. When the lifter is wearing so fast that the cam and lifter never have a proper wear pattern then you get this, but it is hard to say what started it.

The OE lifters were almost always worn out to the point of needing to be refaced at every rebuild, at that is with stock cams and springs.
I know many are blaming the oil, but the oil is only making the problems worse, not making them happen. Maybe these IAP or whatever are cheaper than refacing but are they as good??? are they?? and the stock ones were not very good anyhow.

"Grease is cheaper than steel" is a good analogy, but royal purple oil and cheapo parts?? more like "Penny wise and pound foolish"


Try some engle lifters, or bugpack, or even empi or what ACN or Lowbugget is saying works ok, ect.

[67 cone zone]

Thanks for having my back! Yes I have built lots of engines, but when something goes wrong that I have never had happened before, twice I would like to reach out and ask. I guess I will need to use better quality lifters like CB ones. it just blows me away that how fast the last set wore out & I will use VR1 or Joe Gibbs oil with zinc. I would to thank every one who is writing there thoughts it is all very helpful.
_________________
69 OG paint Cal Look Squareback----------------------1977 Porsche 911 Carrera 3.0--------------------------1974 Porsche 911 Carrera - Johnny Miller
Ah the 80's, a simpler time!

[Arnolds64]

It is the Oil! But I would say junk parts and oil combo with that much damage. In the past you may have got away with cheaper parts but now not so much maybe? Bought my bug about 12 years ago and it had an engine that had been rebuilt about 3 years earlier. I upgraded the engine. The lifters looked like they had normal wear. It had an Engle 120 and Mahle Blacks in it. Decided to replace the cam with another Engle and duplicated using new Mahle Lifters. A few years later wanted to go with a bigger E-130 and when I pulled the Lifters that time the Mahles were pitted. For Break in I used Rotella T that I thought had high zinc on the suggestion from reading that people were doing it. Well Rotella had changed the amount and I did not know apparently. The bottomline is that you have to use a good break in oil with high Zinc and as mentioned a high zinc oil later like Brad Penn. Catalytic converters screw up with zinc so they have reduced it and there for a lot of valve train failures in flat tappet older engines. I used Joe Gibbs Break In oil and switched to Brad Penn for my Engle Lifter and Engle cam this time. I did the Hoover mod on the lifters and when cutting them I could tell they had a much Higher Rockwell hardness. I of course practiced with the old Mahles that were much easier to cut or softer. I can tell you I have probably 5000+ miles on it now and have not noticed any strange adjustments doing the valves. I would like to hear from anyone that has torn down an Engle Lifter equipped engine to see how they are holding up. Been a few years and you would think someone has?
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[bugguy1967]

One recent finding of mine was from the last two engines I built using used cases. I used Scat lifters. I'm not sure if yours are the same dimensions as the Scats, but they are a little longer than German reground and Brazilian aftermarkets. The Scats require a little extra travel than others. If they're only allowed to drop as far as the O.E. style, there will be a gap from the bottom of the lifter head and the top of the lifter boss. When I pushed them in with force, they would drop down, but there was resistance. I measured the lifter diameter and the bore I.D. And that wasn't the issue. When I tried new Brazilian, they'd fit fine. The fix for me was to grind two angles at their bases, and then smooth the two angles together so that all the bases were rounded. They completely dropped down in the bores afterwards.

If I would have let them run without mods, the lifters would have had extra pressure on them at the lobe peak and possibly would have failed during break-in.
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"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine"

[JerryB]

A little history on tappets...............

...along about the very early in the 21st century, the flat tappet manufacturers stopped manufacturing or went BK as the O.E.M.'s were not ordering their product...... Reason was that they have gone to roller tappets .....Johnson, Eaton and Standadyne were the principal players. Not anymore. They figured out that aftermarket was just a drop in the bucket..and the market in flat tappets was NOT a viable product for these large companies.

So then guess who stepped in because distributors in the aftermarket needed product and these smaller companies overseas (read india, and China)...could deliver .....and price was all important. More than likely the buyers didn't give the proper call outs of dimensions and heat treating to the prospective vendors. And we WANT CHEAP!

The secondary problem about this time was motor oil composition. The EPA et. al. figured out that transmission fluid had heavy metals and BAD chemicals in the product.....then motor oil got hit and rightly so to help the environment.

So for a few years there was a lot of camshafts and flat tappets destroyed, mostly with race and hi-po motors with heavy(er) valve spring pressure. The engine builders cought on quickly tho and used EOS and other modifiers for a workaround of the problem. In addition, they would send questionable tappets out for heat treating and re-profiling but still there were problems and they still are somewhat problematic today. Under about 180-190# open spring pressure there is not to many problems. Depends on how wrong the tappets are, and there still some iffy product out there.

About 5 years ago, after Johnson filed BK, Top Line bought most of Johnsons properties and they started manufacturing, and using the proprietary manufacturing processes of HyLift /Johnson. Good stuff from Top Line Johnson now.

BUT.....there still is the offshore product that is being sold. Some of this is satisfactory (because of low spring pressures) and some isn't.

There might not be an easy way of telling what is and isn't good. Visual inspection and measuring the tappet radius might help. In addition, a Rockwell test might be in order especially if you are putting together more than a beater motor.

As to oil, a dedicated brake in oil should be used....Joe Gibbs BR30 or a non ILSAC motor oil (with additives) should be put in the motor for 500-700 miles or on the dyno half or one hour then a few 100 miles only (no additives used with BR30) then change that oil at fill with an oil with high ZZDP PLUS an additive.