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HoustonPhotog Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2013 Posts: 1514 Location: Houston, TX
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:37 am Post subject: |
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One problem I see with the video demo on the first post is that they used a small amount of gasoline, a ruptured fuel line when the car running can dump a lot more gas than they used.
There may not be enough extigushing media in that small tube to account for wind blowing thru the engine bay if the car is running or moving, an air cooled car's fan, if running may suck out most of the extingusher media before it can put out the fire. it is drawing fresh oxygen into the engine bay. In a water cooled van, air from fast driving is also drawn inside via the vents and blown out the open engine bay bottom.
i would assume most engine fires occur when the engine is running and/or the vehicle is moving. The fuel pump will keep pumping gasoline on the fire until the engine is stopped, and even if the fire is blown out, if the enine is still running, there is still a source of ignition to re-ignite everything.
The demo video is not a good representation of a real world fire. with a cold engine, not running, no forced air flow, with no other source of ignition, and a limited amount of fuel spilled is a lot easier to extingush than what would be expected in a real world situation.
Review of the makers website shows nothing about rating of the extingusher, no ABC rating what so ever is listed. Although they do indicate it is for an enclosed space. how enclosed is the engine bay at 65 mph, or with an aircooled fan turning fast?
for the price, I will pass and instead have a real rated extingusher.
this device maybe ok to have, but I would still get a real extingusher.
i just dont see this thing being very effective in a real world fire in an engine bay in a moving vehicle. don let this be your only protection |
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HoustonPhotog Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2013 Posts: 1514 Location: Houston, TX
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Kburns737 Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2008 Posts: 184 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder how difficult it would be to rig a switch that kills power to the fuel pump once the fire suppression system is activated? Seems like those two systems combined would make for a pretty safe setup.
Edited: Another idea, rigging a smoke detector to throw the fuel pump power, I'll have to google that one to see whats been done before.
Last edited by Kburns737 on Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HoustonPhotog Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2013 Posts: 1514 Location: Houston, TX
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HoustonPhotog Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2013 Posts: 1514 Location: Houston, TX
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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One other concern, what's the shelf life? I know that cylinder type extingushers with plastic valves are NOT recommended for cars, as the heat on a hot day in the trunk or cockpit is enough to cause the plastic parts to eventualy fail and cause the pressure to leak out. In the engine bay the heat cycles will be worse than in the cockpit. how long will this unit stay totally sealed in the engine bay? I doubt very much that it is refillable if it does leak.
No certification, small size thus limited fire supresion capacity, suspect shelf life becuase of all plastic construction. These are all factors aginst it.
from what I have read the chemical in it is hardly safe, it will form HF acid when exposed to moisture, that is a deadly poison, and one of the few acids that eats glass. it likely is not too good on an aluminum engine either.
I would not trust nor buy any unrated extingusher, that is a BIG issue. |
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noganav Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2006 Posts: 1236 Location: San Diego CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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Weigh all that against the very real possibility of a complete loss due to a fire. The fact is that it does no harm being there. And it might, just might, be better than nothing. After seeing so many vans burn, I've done everything possible to avoid that happening to mine. $200 was worth a little extra peace of mind for me. |
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HoustonPhotog Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2013 Posts: 1514 Location: Houston, TX
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MrBusCo Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2007 Posts: 1561 Location: stoughton, WI
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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noganav wrote: |
Weigh all that against the very real possibility of a complete loss due to a fire. The fact is that it does no harm being there. And it might, just might, be better than nothing. After seeing so many vans burn, I've done everything possible to avoid that happening to mine. $200 was worth a little extra peace of mind for me. |
Thanks for posting up the pics and your thoughts on the Blazecut!
I just came across the thread and thought I'd chime in on some of the concerns brought up.
Blazecut is A,B,C rated. I've updated the listings.
I did go out of the way to light a bus on fire to demonstrate the product, it is good enough for me to see that it works! I think some folks won't be sold no matter what, and thats OK.
I carry a 5lb fire extinguisher in all of my cars as well. Redundancy is good and so is being prepared. I'll always suggest having a fire extinguisher first. They are portable, cheap, and you can use it to put a fire out in someone elses car as well. If you don't have a fire extinguisher in your VW, go get one now!
Shelf life is 10 years.
It is recommended to check the functionality of the system by a simple pressure check: The system is under pressure and functional when the pressure indicator is above the value of 0 bar. The pressure indicator will change depending on the ambient temperature, the pressure at 68F is approximately 2 bar, and the pressure at 194F is approximately 10 bar. The system cannot slowly leak down or loose pressure like a conventional fire extinguisher. If the gauge is at zero, or you cannot see an air bubble in the line, the system is empty and should be replaced.
Thanks again for posting about it. _________________ Josh The Bus Guy formerly known as JOGR
BlazeCutUSA.com MrBusCo.com |
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photogdave Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004 Posts: 3048 Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
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MrBusCo Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2007 Posts: 1561 Location: stoughton, WI
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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In regards to effectivness while moving, I haven't had any customers have a fire.... yet.
You do not need to worry about ambient temperatures or engine bay temperature, its just not a point of concern. This product was researched, developed, and tested by the manufacturer, and is designed to be in the engine compartment. _________________ Josh The Bus Guy formerly known as JOGR
BlazeCutUSA.com MrBusCo.com |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9797 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:34 am Post subject: |
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JOGR wrote: |
In regards to effectivness while moving, I haven't had any customers have a fire.... yet... |
And no one has volunteered to find out. But I have had the system in place and driven in Arizona heat enough times to feel confident that those aspects of use (normal engine heat and 100°+ outside air temp) are not going to set it off.
It isn't as if I am going to stop maintaining the fuel lines or being aware of possible electrical faults -- so I see no down side in having this in place 'just in case'. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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JOGR wrote: |
noganav wrote: |
Weigh all that against the very real possibility of a complete loss due to a fire. The fact is that it does no harm being there. And it might, just might, be better than nothing. After seeing so many vans burn, I've done everything possible to avoid that happening to mine. $200 was worth a little extra peace of mind for me. |
Thanks for posting up the pics and your thoughts on the Blazecut!
I just came across the thread and thought I'd chime in on some of the concerns brought up.
Blazecut is A,B,C rated. I've updated the listings.
I did go out of the way to light a bus on fire to demonstrate the product, it is good enough for me to see that it works! I think some folks won't be sold no matter what, and thats OK.
I carry a 5lb fire extinguisher in all of my cars as well. Redundancy is good and so is being prepared. I'll always suggest having a fire extinguisher first. They are portable, cheap, and you can use it to put a fire out in someone elses car as well. If you don't have a fire extinguisher in your VW, go get one now!
Shelf life is 10 years.
It is recommended to check the functionality of the system by a simple pressure check: The system is under pressure and functional when the pressure indicator is above the value of 0 bar. The pressure indicator will change depending on the ambient temperature, the pressure at 68F is approximately 2 bar, and the pressure at 194F is approximately 10 bar. The system cannot slowly leak down or loose pressure like a conventional fire extinguisher. If the gauge is at zero, or you cannot see an air bubble in the line, the system is empty and should be replaced.
Thanks again for posting about it. |
Since "Blazecut is A,B,C rated." Can you share the numerical A,B, and C ratings of the product determined by the rating agency, ANSI/UL? I'd like to know how big a fire the ANSI/UL has determined this product is good for extinguishing. Since it is ABC rated, that data should be available.
If the product indeed "cannot slowly leak down or loose pressure like a conventional fire extinguisher. ". Why is a pressure indicator on the product, why only a ten year life? How come conventional fire extinguishers don't use leak proof designs like Blazecut does? 'You sure these can't leak like all them other fire extinguishers do?
Last edited by bluebus86 on Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LandSailor Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 315 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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syncromike wrote: |
Does anyone know if it has it ever been tested at highway speeds? I'd think with the airflow at 55 mph it'd be a lot harder for that little tube to displace all the oxygen. It seems pretty ingenious otherwise. |
The tube is filled with liquid, not gas. The boiling point of that liquid is 29°F, so it's going to expand extremely quickly. There's half a Kg of it in the tube that's going to spray out at the hottest spot (where the tube ruptured), cooling it violently, and displacing the oxygen to disrupt two parts of the fire triangle (oxidizer and temperature).
Now, I don't claim to know how these numbers fit together, but a cubic meter of the liquid weighs 1360KG at 77°F (That's literally two pounds short of weighing a TON.) The same volume in vapor form weighs 6.4KG.
In non-metric units, it's 85 pounds per cubic foot and .4 pounds for the vapor form. The phase transition is going to suck up a massive amount of heat and expand quicker than it can be sucked out of the compartment, IMHO.
I admit. I am totally armchair quarterbacking this, but at least I've looked at the data and somewhat understand what's happening.
The whiny users at that other forum are just showing their third grade gossiping school girls selves if they are dismissing this because of their stated "claims".
"What guarantee do I get?" NONE, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FIRE SUPPRESSION SYSTEM.
"I can make that! It's $40 worth of parts!" Yeah, go ahead and show us how, dude. Put up or shut up. (I guarantee that person has never worked in manufacturing of ANY sort.)
"HYDROFLUORIC ACID!!!! OMIGERRRRD" Shut up.
In short, this is $200 that I feel could possibly save your van if you have an engine compartment fire.
If you want actual "insurance" against a loss, then you'd better buy a literal "insurance policy". Period.
http://www2.dupont.com/FE/en_US/products/fe36.html#.UpJvZMre42V has links to the data sheets and stuff if y'all want to do some math and physics calcs. One of its intended uses is specifically engine compartment fires. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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LandSailor wrote: |
syncromike wrote: |
Does anyone know if it has it ever been tested at highway speeds? I'd think with the airflow at 55 mph it'd be a lot harder for that little tube to displace all the oxygen. It seems pretty ingenious otherwise. |
The tube is filled with liquid, not gas. The boiling point of that liquid is 29°F, so it's going to expand extremely quickly. There's half a Kg of it in the tube that's going to spray out at the hottest spot (where the tube ruptured), cooling it violently, and displacing the oxygen to disrupt two parts of the fire triangle (oxidizer and temperature).
Now, I don't claim to know how these numbers fit together, but a cubic meter of the liquid weighs 1360KG at 77°F (That's literally two pounds short of weighing a TON.) The same volume in vapor form weighs 6.4KG.
In non-metric units, it's 85 pounds per cubic foot and .4 pounds for the vapor form. The phase transition is going to suck up a massive amount of heat and expand quicker than it can be sucked out of the compartment, IMHO.
I admit. I am totally armchair quarterbacking this, but at least I've looked at the data and somewhat understand what's happening.
The whiny users at that other forum are just showing their third grade gossiping school girls selves if they are dismissing this because of their stated "claims".
"What guarantee do I get?" NONE, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FIRE SUPPRESSION SYSTEM.
"I can make that! It's $40 worth of parts!" Yeah, go ahead and show us how, dude. Put up or shut up. (I guarantee that person has never worked in manufacturing of ANY sort.)
"HYDROFLUORIC ACID!!!! OMIGERRRRD" Shut up.
In short, this is $200 that I feel could possibly save your van if you have an engine compartment fire.
If you want actual "insurance" against a loss, then you'd better buy a literal "insurance policy". Period.
http://www2.dupont.com/FE/en_US/products/fe36.html#.UpJvZMre42V has links to the data sheets and stuff if y'all want to do some math and physics calcs. One of its intended uses is specifically engine compartment fires. |
with the expansion ratio of 85 to .4 (213 to 1) estimating a half inch inner diameter tube size, and 36 inch length the assumed tube holds 28 cu inches of fire retardant. Expand that 213 times to get 6000 cu inches or 42 cu feet of vapour. Which is about one or two engine bay volumes. An air cooled motor at speed will draw that amount of air out in seconds. (Note... 28 cu inchs is about 1/5 the volume of a 2 inch diameter by 12 inch tall "conventional" fire extinguisher (150 cu inch))
If your still on the road, the road draft is one issue, in an air cooled car, the cooling fan is another. Importantly, if the extinguishing system dumps, yet you have not first turned off ignition, the likely source of ignition remains, the fuel leak is still occurring, unburned fuel abounds, and now the extinguisher has dumped, its contents now blown out of the engine bay,..... spark spark spark, whooooosh!!!!!!! the fire is re-ignited seconds after it was "put out".
A manual activated extinguisher is a wiser choice. It can be activated after vehicle is stopped and shut down. When this is done, the chance of re-ignition is greatly decreased.
based on these estimates your paying $200 for the equivalent extinguishing media volume of a 2 inch diameter, 3 inch tall extinguisher.
now of course these estimates may be off, maybe by a factor of two or more, but still, it is a high priced unit.
The major weakness of this kind of system is the fact it is paramount to remove any ignition source BEFORE attempting extinguishing a fire. This makes this a dubious choice for an on the move, vehicle fire.
Anyway it will be interesting to see what the seller will show for the ABC rating results. To be ABC rated you have to be ale to put out a standard fire size, represented by the ratings number. A for paper and wood fires, B for gasoline and liquid fires, C for electrical fires.
Last edited by bluebus86 on Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LandSailor Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 315 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Then, wire the sensor in the end of it to an engine / vehicle kill circuit. Hard to beat a fire sensor that also kills the fire.
I don't think anyone has suggested relying ONLY on this for saving your Vanagon. However, people waste far more money on this game that don't have any chance of extinguishing a fire. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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LandSailor wrote: |
Then, wire the sensor in the end of it to an engine / vehicle kill circuit. Hard to beat a fire sensor that also kills the fire.
I don't think anyone has suggested relying ONLY on this for saving your Vanagon. However, people waste far more money on this game that don't have any chance of extinguishing a fire. |
if your going to that trouble of adding a kill switch, might as well rig a manual pull system, one that has a tank of media that has 5, 10, 20 times the volume of this plastic tube, and is rechargeable.
As far as suggestions that this is the only extinguisher needed, the video with the old van on fire certainly did not suggest anything other than Blazecut is needed to dose them flames, "awesome" I believe as it was put on film.
It's nice to know there are methods that waste far more money, I rather waste no money.
We'll see what the seller has to say about being rated by the ANSL/UL as ABC rated. Then evaluations can be made in fire fighting ability with other extinguishers.
Last edited by bluebus86 on Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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photogdave Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004 Posts: 3048 Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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bluebus86 wrote: |
As far as suggestions that this is the only extinguisher needed, the video with the old van on fire certainly did not suggest anything other than Blazecut is needed to does them flames, "awesome" I believe as it was put on film.
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The seller himself says in this very thread that he also recommends carrying a portable extinguisher.
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I carry a 5lb fire extinguisher in all of my cars as well. Redundancy is good and so is being prepared. I'll always suggest having a fire extinguisher first. They are portable, cheap, and you can use it to put a fire out in someone elses car as well. If you don't have a fire extinguisher in your VW, go get one now! |
What more do you want? Why do you have such a bee in your bonnet about this product? It doesn't hurt, it might help, and it's just ONE optional step in the fire prevention process for your vehicle.
_________________ 89 Syncro GL Westfalia 2.1 WBX/WBXaustSS
My Westy Movies:
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Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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photogdave wrote: |
bluebus86 wrote: |
As far as suggestions that this is the only extinguisher needed, the video with the old van on fire certainly did not suggest anything other than Blazecut is needed to does them flames, "awesome" I believe as it was put on film.
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The seller himself says in this very thread that he also recommends carrying a portable extinguisher.
Quote: |
I carry a 5lb fire extinguisher in all of my cars as well. Redundancy is good and so is being prepared. I'll always suggest having a fire extinguisher first. They are portable, cheap, and you can use it to put a fire out in someone elses car as well. If you don't have a fire extinguisher in your VW, go get one now! |
What more do you want? Why do you have such a bee in your bonnet about this product? It doesn't hurt, it might help, and it's just ONE optional step in the fire prevention process for your vehicle.
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Problem is that this product has been claimed to be ABC rated, yet no data has been shown to prove it. Still waiting.....
Maybe the seller claims someplace that that are limitations to this unit, but the video shows a different story, a bit of hype, a non-real life example of use. What really gets the bees buzzing is all the hype selling it. It has been claimed that it cannot leak like them conventional extinguishers, really????? Claimed to be ABC rated, really??? then what's the rating?Hype in advertising is ok when your selling beer, or bath tissue, but not fire protection systems.
Seller even makes a claim of not knowing if this ever put out a real fire in a Vanagon.
What more do I want? How about the ABC rating that is claimed to have been awarded on this unit???????? Is this a 10 B, a 50 B rated unit?
I just don't understand why asking pointed questions about some claims and suggested uses on an untested product gets your bees buzzing like Winnie the Poor had his hand in your bee bonnet.
Anyway I see flaws, and the lack of response for the ABC rating inquiry tells me this product may not be as much a honey of a product as is claimed in the advertising. Bees in my bonnet, oh that stings!!!!!
Last edited by bluebus86 on Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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