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Installing Hella Intermittent Wiper Control, and...
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DougB
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:37 pm    Post subject: Installing Hella Intermittent Wiper Control, and... Reply with quote

Hello all,

I'm getting ready to install a Hella Intermittent Wiper Control (5WA 001 871-04, or as I've more commonly seen it referenced, part no: 0701) in my '75 Westy. I'll use this in conjunction with the stock wiper stalk switch (which doesn't have the pre-wired 4th notch for intermittent functionality).

The instructions have two ways of connecting the relay, one for "positively connected wiper switches" and the other for "negatively connected wiper switches". It basically comes down to whether I'm supposed to connect the 30/31 lead if the relay to switched positive (15) or ground (31).

Any ideas?

Thanks!

- Doug
_________________
'75 Campmobile (former tin-top now with a SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'67 BMW R60/2
'55 Puch SGS250
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-23040.htm
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posting a picture of the schematic and instructions would help you get a correct answer.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These may help.

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=86544

http://s300.photobucket.com/user/aquatopaz/media/OriginalwiperlwasherT2b_zpsaf7da683.jpg.html
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DougB
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry about the lack of information...I was down in my workshop posting from my cell phone.

So, it's not the VW relay I'm installing...it's this Hella control (with knob):

http://www.ozautoelectrics.com/hella-windscreen-wiper-control-rotary-switch-intermittent-12v-dc.html

I didn't pay anywhere near that price...got it a few months ago for $35 on eBay...that OZAuto site just had one of the better color pics.

Anyway, here are the two instruction sheets for it:

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/classicgarage_2272_431392355
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/classicgarage_2272_432616439

You can see where it is providing two different wiring schemes depending on if the wiper switch is negatively or positively connected. That's what I'm hoping to find out, which of the two schemes I should follow. It's a cold night here and I'm a little under the weather from too many nights up until 2am wiring in my engine monitoring gauges. :-/

Thoughts on which it might be? I've done a lot of forum searching and whereas intermittent wipers is a popular topic most are trying to get the 4th position out of the stock wiper switch (like on the CE II) and not going this route.

Thanks in advance...free set of 24 new serrated washers for installing CV joints, and 2 diodes for installing the VDO tach, to the first person who can give me a definitive answer! Smile

- Doug
_________________
'75 Campmobile (former tin-top now with a SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'67 BMW R60/2
'55 Puch SGS250
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-23040.htm
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here you go.
S-10 is Positive, the switches are on the Pos. side of the wiper motor. That would make the wiper motor Pos. side switched.

16-17 are grounds.
Good Luck

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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eche_bus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The instructions appear to refer to the original wiper switch, which in the wiring diagram for your '75 is labeled "E" and connected to current tracks 17, 18. One side of this switch is connected to power (positive), with contacts that then connect to your wiper motor. The opposite side of the wiper motor connects to ground (minus).


In short, your switch is positively connected.
Take it from an electrical engineer. Let me know if you need further help with the electrical diagram. You can find the diagram in the Bentely book or here in the Technical section.

Edit: whoops, Tcash beat me to it by a few seconds. Embarassed
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can certainly see why you are confused here. Tcash is correct though, the motor is switched on the positive side.
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DougB
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome, thanks! Great answers from both of you...if either of you would like the free diodes and/or washers just send me a PM with your mailing address. I ordered too many diodes and have just been spreading them around, and the seller mistakenly sent me more serrated washers than I ordered, so I'm giving them away.

Sad to say, I can read old style diagrams (follow the wire) but don't quite understand the newer style (with the bottom baseline) yet...I know I need to learn how to read them :-/

Thanks again!

- Doug
_________________
'75 Campmobile (former tin-top now with a SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'67 BMW R60/2
'55 Puch SGS250
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-23040.htm
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eche_bus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't need the parts, but glad to help. If you're referring to the horizontal line at the bottom of the schematic with all the numbers inside it, the line represents ground (battery minus) and the numbers are the current path reference. There is a table listing all of the different electrical parts like switches, motors, lamps and next to each is a short list of current path reference numbers. Scanning across the bottom of the schematic for the associated reference number(s) just look up from there to find that part and see how it is connected to the rest of the circuit.
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telford dorr
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an alternate schematic of the control connections:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

In your case, the 30/31 terminal goes to +12 vdc.

Also, I'd wire the new control into the green 53e wire instead of the black 53 wire, so that the control can't accidentally power the wipers when the wiper switch is set to the 'fast' position. If you do this, connect as follows:

1) Cut the green 53e wire
2) Connect the 53m terminal to the switch 53e connection.
3) Connect the 53s terminal to the wiper motor 53e connection.
4) Connect the 15 terminal to a fused switched +12 volts. I'd use the same S10 fuse that supplies the wipers.
5) Connect the 30/31 terminal to the same as (4) above.
6) Connect the 31 terminal to ground.

Yeah, it seems that the 53s and 53m connections are reversed, but they're not. The normal wiper power is supposed to enter at 53s and exit at 53m. Wiring it as described above accomplishes this, as the 'park' power is supplied by the motor, goes through the green wire to the wiper switch, and returns to the motor via the black wire (see stock bus schematic).

Notes on standard Bosch terminal numbering (also applies to VW wiring):

31 = ground
30 = unswitched battery power
15 = switched battery power

Thus, a terminal labeled 30/31 can connect to either unswitched battery power or ground, as needed. There's method to the madness...
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box
More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)


Last edited by telford dorr on Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:23 pm; edited 6 times in total
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DougB
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Telford! I'm looking for ward to trying to get this thing fitted...if I could only find the spare time Crying or Very sad

I'll let you all know how things go!

- Doug Very Happy
_________________
'75 Campmobile (former tin-top now with a SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'67 BMW R60/2
'55 Puch SGS250
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-23040.htm
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DougB
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Telford, I'm a bit of a bozo...I went to install the relay and totally forgot about your suggestion to use the green 53e wire instead of the black 53 wire. I tried wiring it so 53 from the switch went to 53m on the relay, and 53s from the relat went to 43 on the motor, and the result was as you expected (all sorts of funky behavior with the park setting). Not that I see this post again everything makes sense, and the wiring harness I made for this will easily plug into the green wire just as easily. I had been powering the relay from the same fusebox terminal as the wiper motor using a piggyback connector, so I'm good there. Ground was done via one of the under dash screws into the body.

I'll let you all know how this goes...thanks again!

- Doug
_________________
'75 Campmobile (former tin-top now with a SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'67 BMW R60/2
'55 Puch SGS250
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-23040.htm
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telford dorr
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I tried wiring it so 53 from the switch went to 53m on the relay, and 53s from the relay went to 53 on the motor, and the result was as you expected (all sorts of funky behavior with the park setting).

Yeah, that won't work.

To be clear:

If you wire it into the black 53 wire (e.g. between the wiper switch and the wiper motor):

- 53s on Hella control goes to 53 on wiper switch
- 53m on Hella control goes to 53 on wiper motor

If you wire it into the green 53e wire (e.g. between the wiper motor park switch and the wiper switch):

- 53s on Hella control goes to 53e on wiper motor (the park switch)
- 53m on Hella control goes to 53e on wiper switch

Note that these seem opposite of each other, but remember: on the Hella control, power goes into 53s and exits from 53m. You need to be able to trace the connection from 53m to the actual wiper motor, not the park switch, for this control to work correctly. This connection may pass through the wiper switch on its way to the motor.

53s is the opposite: you need to be able to trace its connection to the wiper motor park switch. Again this connection may pass through the wiper switch.

'Park' Current Flow, Visually:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Consider the naming of the terminals: 53s = 53"switch" (power input); 53m = 53"motor" (power output).

My reason for choosing to insert the control in the green 53e wire is that the Hella control will only function when the wiper switch is off, and thus no possibility of conflict. This would be no big deal if the wiper was a single-speed unit. It's the dual speed wipers where the problems come in. Your bus has dual speed wipers...

In short, wire it up like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box
More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)


Last edited by telford dorr on Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DougB
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a ton, Telford...that last diagram pretty much makes it foolproof (meaning there's at least a 50% chance I'll get it right Wink
_________________
'75 Campmobile (former tin-top now with a SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'67 BMW R60/2
'55 Puch SGS250
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-23040.htm
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flaquito1
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: intermittant wipers for early bay windows (1969) Reply with quote

Has anyone been successful in installing intermittent wipers on an early bay window without major cost or modification.
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telford dorr
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same control will work, but the wiring is different:

- cut the brown wire from switch terminal 31b to motor 31b.

- wire Hella control (control) terminal 53s to switch terminal 31b.
- wire control terminal 53m to motor terminal 31b.
- wire control terminal 30/31 to switch terminal 53a (black/purple wire).

- wire control terminal 15 to switch terminal 30 (black wire).
- wire control terminal 31 to switch terminal 31 (brown wire), or ground.

In short, wire it like this (borrowed from the '71 bus schematic):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box
More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)


Last edited by telford dorr on Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:59 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When installed into the green (park) wire will the park function still work normally?
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telford dorr
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. The intermittent control works by periodically overriding the park function, but needs it to complete the intermittent sweep.

The control has a SPDT relay inside, where 53m is the common pole, 53s is the normally closed contact, and 30/31 is the normally open contact. 15 and 31 are power and ground to the control.

53m is normally connected to 53s. When an intermittent wipe is desired, the control activates its relay, connecting 53m to 30/31 instead of 53s. This starts the wipe. The control deactivates its relay before the wipe is complete, returning 53m to 53s . Power from the park switch via 53s completes the wipe.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box
More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)
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DougB
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Success! I was having two issues after trying Telford's suggestions...the first was because I was powering the relay from an external battery (didn't want to make those connections to switched vehicle power until I verified that the whole deal would work), and the second was that I didn't realize that hooking into the green wire circuit meant that the relay would work when the wiper switch was *off* (I was testing it in the low power setting).

All is working well now...thanks again, all!!
_________________
'75 Campmobile (former tin-top now with a SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'67 BMW R60/2
'55 Puch SGS250
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-23040.htm
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telford dorr
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct. The wiper switch overrides the intermittent control (without conflict) on all settings except 'off'.

Congrats!
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box
More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)
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