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Altema
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Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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 Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:23 pm Post subject: Left head oil drain to sump |
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I'd like to add a drain from the left side cylinder head to my deep sump using AN fittings. The sump has a blank provision for a return line, and I assume I could drill and tap the bottom of the head near the middle. Has anyone else done this and have suggestions or photos?
Paul |
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15302
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Add the drain to the valve cover. It's a whole lot cheaper then screwing up a $500 performance head. Unless your turning 7000-8000 RPM regularly in a race engine then adding a return line is probably a waste of time.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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bugguy1967
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Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:43 am Post subject: |
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It's been done. Mike Lawless has one in that location.
Is everything still being assembled? If not, how are you going to stop chips from getting in the sump?
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"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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vince1
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Joined: December 14, 2003
Posts: 823
Location: Burgundy, France
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mark tucker
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Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| sweet!! make a right turn and fill the left vc... unless you add a check valve to the line. I have 4, 7/8" dia tubes on mine and they do the trick just fine. |
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Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| Add the drain to the valve cover. It's a whole lot cheaper then screwing up a $500 performance head. Unless your turning 7000-8000 RPM regularly in a race engine then adding a return line is probably a waste of time. |
Nice point about not messing up the heads, as it would have to be plugged if the drainback were not used for any reason. Valve covers are cheaper. The engine sees 5k frequently, and 6k once in a blue moon, but it does stay above 4000 rpm for extended periods. The left valve cover fills completely before then because of the crank whipping oil at the pushrod tubes. It does not cause me any problems, but since the pushrod tubes are useless as drains above 3k, I'd rather provide an alternate route so I don't have a quart and a half of oil up in one head just sitting there.
| bugguy1967 wrote: |
| Is everything still being assembled? If not, how are you going to stop chips from getting in the sump? |
The engine is in the car, but I was going to remove the sump to drill and tap it.
| vince1 wrote: |
| If you use some bail clips valve covers, you'll have to use an AN bung which is much shorter than a regular barbed fitting. |
Thanks for the tip and the photo. I'd prefer AN fittings anyway, as having a simple hose pop off would NOT be a good thing. Oil changes are good, but not while you are driving 
| mark tucker wrote: |
| sweet!! make a right turn and fill the left vc... unless you add a check valve to the line. I have 4, 7/8" dia tubes on mine and they do the trick just fine. |
With a deep sump, you have to be hitting the curves a lot harder than I do because the valve covers are about half a foot above the sump. I'll get an exact measurement later. Besides, if you are driving hard, then the left cover will already be full my friend 
Oh and as far as the 4 tubes that are already there? No, they do not do the trick just fine.
Paul |
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mark tucker
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Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| then your pressure relief is filling the cover.have you ever seen inside a vw engine?? just how does the crank wip the oil between the cam turning the other way pushing the oil to the 1,2 side then down&around it then up through the slot cut in the case &up through the tubes. it's not the crank doing it.you can redirect the oil relief hole, I think windage tubes may make it worse.you could also use a windage tray to help with corrnering. |
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Altema
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Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| then your pressure relief is filling the cover.have you ever seen inside a vw engine?? |
Nope, never ever seen a VW engine. I always wear my wife's blindfolds when I build 'em!
Seriously though Mark, the problem has been well documented and proven, and there is a video demonstrating the issue with a window in a valve cover. I'll see if I can dig up the video, as I was shocked when I first saw it. In the meantime, here's a quote from Eric Allred who is one of the many here who know a thousand times more than me...
"The windage of a VW engine slings oil into the 3/4 valve cover. Inside the engine is a hurricane (literally) of oil. The clockwise rotation of the engine pushes the oil up the 3/4 pushrod tubes and fills up the valve cover due to the inside shape/design of the engine case. And it fills it up quite fast. With a vent on my 3/4 valve cover, I push enough oil up the pushrod tubes, overfill the valve cover, and push oil up into the breather box. How much oil? On the 9300rpm runs, I was kicking on the oil light before I got through the traps. Roughly 10.5 to 11 seconds I was pushing all my available oil out of the sump and overfilling my 1 gallon breather box. It was all going up and out my 3/4 valve cover vent. I will also mention I was (and am) running a 4 quart Berg sump. That's 6.5 quarts of oil in my case not counting oil lines and filter. I pumped it all up and out of the engine on every pass. Compression was good, leakdown was good, etc. That was NOT the issue. I was literally slinging the oil up and out of the engine." |
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Jimmy111
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Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Altema wrote: |
| mark tucker wrote: |
| then your pressure relief is filling the cover.have you ever seen inside a vw engine?? |
Nope, never ever seen a VW engine. I always wear my wife's blindfolds when I build 'em!
Seriously though Mark, the problem has been well documented and proven, and there is a video demonstrating the issue with a window in a valve cover. I'll see if I can dig up the video, as I was shocked when I first saw it. In the meantime, here's a quote from Eric Allred who is one of the many here who know a thousand times more than me...
"The windage of a VW engine slings oil into the 3/4 valve cover. Inside the engine is a hurricane (literally) of oil. The clockwise rotation of the engine pushes the oil up the 3/4 pushrod tubes and fills up the valve cover due to the inside shape/design of the engine case. And it fills it up quite fast. With a vent on my 3/4 valve cover, I push enough oil up the pushrod tubes, overfill the valve cover, and push oil up into the breather box. How much oil? On the 9300rpm runs, I was kicking on the oil light before I got through the traps. Roughly 10.5 to 11 seconds I was pushing all my available oil out of the sump and overfilling my 1 gallon breather box. It was all going up and out my 3/4 valve cover vent. I will also mention I was (and am) running a 4 quart Berg sump. That's 6.5 quarts of oil in my case not counting oil lines and filter. I pumped it all up and out of the engine on every pass. Compression was good, leakdown was good, etc. That was NOT the issue. I was literally slinging the oil up and out of the engine." |
This for the most part is Caca.
The crank is way up and out of the oil. Any oil getting thrown around by the crank will be thrown to the bottom of the pistons or collect and drip down thru the cam (where there is very little clearance by the way) into the sump. The lowest part of the crank or connecting rods is above the lifters and the whole area there is closed to any flow from oil from the crank rotation.
The sump only holds about 1-3/4 inch of oil when off and about 1.25 when running. While running if the oil level is correct, all the oil would collect in the part of the sump that is projecting from the bottom of the case. This area holds about 1.2 quarts of oil.
In otherwords it is almost impossible for there to be any oil thrown from the crank and flowing up the pushrod tubes from the crankcase by volumn alone.
However this dose not include the physics problems of trying to push a liquid up thru a small diameter tube that has counterflowing gasses and liquid coming down it.
The oll you are talking about regarding MM's video is coming from the pushrods and being thrown around by the rockers. |
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SBD
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2012
Posts: 3269
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Jimmy111 wrote: |
| Altema wrote: |
| mark tucker wrote: |
| then your pressure relief is filling the cover.have you ever seen inside a vw engine?? |
Nope, never ever seen a VW engine. I always wear my wife's blindfolds when I build 'em!
Seriously though Mark, the problem has been well documented and proven, and there is a video demonstrating the issue with a window in a valve cover. I'll see if I can dig up the video, as I was shocked when I first saw it. In the meantime, here's a quote from Eric Allred who is one of the many here who know a thousand times more than me...
"The windage of a VW engine slings oil into the 3/4 valve cover. Inside the engine is a hurricane (literally) of oil. The clockwise rotation of the engine pushes the oil up the 3/4 pushrod tubes and fills up the valve cover due to the inside shape/design of the engine case. And it fills it up quite fast. With a vent on my 3/4 valve cover, I push enough oil up the pushrod tubes, overfill the valve cover, and push oil up into the breather box. How much oil? On the 9300rpm runs, I was kicking on the oil light before I got through the traps. Roughly 10.5 to 11 seconds I was pushing all my available oil out of the sump and overfilling my 1 gallon breather box. It was all going up and out my 3/4 valve cover vent. I will also mention I was (and am) running a 4 quart Berg sump. That's 6.5 quarts of oil in my case not counting oil lines and filter. I pumped it all up and out of the engine on every pass. Compression was good, leakdown was good, etc. That was NOT the issue. I was literally slinging the oil up and out of the engine." |
This for the most part is Caca.
The crank is way up and out of the oil. Any oil getting thrown around by the crank will be thrown to the bottom of the pistons or collect and drip down thru the cam (where there is very little clearance by the way) into the sump. The lowest part of the crank or connecting rods is above the lifters and the whole area there is closed to any flow from oil from the crank rotation.
The sump only holds about 1-3/4 inch of oil when off and about 1.25 when running. While running if the oil level is correct, all the oil would collect in the part of the sump that is projecting from the bottom of the case. This area holds about 1.2 quarts of oil.
In otherwords it is almost impossible for there to be any oil thrown from the crank and flowing up the pushrod tubes from the crankcase by volumn alone.
However this dose not include the physics problems of trying to push a liquid up thru a small diameter tube that has counterflowing gasses and liquid coming down it.
The oll you are talking about regarding MM's video is coming from the pushrods and being thrown around by the rockers. |
If the oil in the video mentioned is from the pushrods and rockers, why is it only a problem on one side of the engine? Does the 3/4 side oil THAT much better? I'm gathering parts (and info) for a 2110 stroker build and I want to know what's necessary and what isn't before I get there. Just wonderin'  |
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Jimmy111
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Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| The 3/4 lifters get fed directly from the main oil gallery from the pump. The 1/2 lifters get whatever can get thru the 1/8"x3/16" groove that is in the center cam journal. When the engine is cold, this is not much oil. But when it gets hot, enough oil does flow. |
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SBD
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Joined: October 24, 2012
Posts: 3269
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Do the Hoover mods reduce the problem on the 3/4 side or just make the 1/2 side have the same problem? |
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Jimmy111
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Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Oil in the heads is never a problem. It provides cooling for the head itself and the springs. 1/2 side gets much more oil. Not much difference in 3/4 side.
But you also need to enlarge the grove in both cam journals. You can see here the one on the left is enlarged and the one on the right is stock.
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15302
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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I shift my drag race Buggy at 7200 RPM and never have more then a teaspoon full of oil in my breather box. I have both valve covers vented at the front and on the very top and never have any problems. I'm not saying MM or EA are wrong but on my race car I do not experience any problems with oil puking out the 3/4 side valve cover.
Your wasting your time worrying about a drain on a 5500 RPM street engine. With a 1 1/2 quart oil sump your not going to run out of oil.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Altema
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Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the tips, at least saying it is not worthwhile is better than pretending it does not happen. I would venture to say it's less important in a drag car than a street car that gets driven hard. I think you would push a little bit less oil during a 12 second drag race than you would driving for 5 hours nonstop at 4,000 rpm.
Another aspect is letting that oil circulate through the head instead of it just sitting there. Despite VW's re-design with the doghouse cooler, the air going to the left is still 22 degrees warmer before it even hits the heads.
Paul |
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Jimmy111
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Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Altema wrote: |
Thanks for the tips, at least saying it is not worthwhile is better than pretending it does not happen. I would venture to say it's less important in a drag car than a street car that gets driven hard. I think you would push a little bit less oil during a 12 second drag race than you would driving for 5 hours nonstop at 4,000 rpm.
Another aspect is letting that oil circulate through the head instead of it just sitting there. Despite VW's re-design with the doghouse cooler, the air going to the left is still 22 degrees warmer before it even hits the heads.
Paul |
Why is this? |
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Altema
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Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Jimmy111 wrote: |
| Altema wrote: |
Thanks for the tips, at least saying it is not worthwhile is better than pretending it does not happen. I would venture to say it's less important in a drag car than a street car that gets driven hard. I think you would push a little bit less oil during a 12 second drag race than you would driving for 5 hours nonstop at 4,000 rpm.
Another aspect is letting that oil circulate through the head instead of it just sitting there. Despite VW's re-design with the doghouse cooler, the air going to the left is still 22 degrees warmer before it even hits the heads.
Paul |
Why is this? |
Probably due to the metal surrounding the oil cooler being hotter, and one side of that is shared with the shroud interior, even if the air passing through the oil cooler itself is dumped outside the shroud instead of to the cylinders like the early shrouds... but that's just a guess. It's close enough for a stocker though. |
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