Starter will not start after long drive

[mr matt]

Hi,

Hope you can help.
After a long drive ( 1 - 2 hours) even in reasonably cold weather, I find stopping for gas or food the starter will not turn over.

Usually takes about 1/2 hour of sitting for it to be able to turn again. Once on a camping trip is barely started to turn after sitting for a day. when the starter does turn, it is not sluggish at all turns as it should.

I am tending to think it is the starter.. but just wondered if anyone has had this problem, and how it was resolved.
thanks
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1955 3-fold semaphore Oval beetle
1971 Convertible beetle
1977 Westfalia, FI, Berlin interior

[otiswesty]

I fought this for years. There is an easy fix with a relay to the starter as the wiring of the solenoid is affected by the heat of the engine or so.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=404521
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1978 Sage Green P22 Westfalia
1989 T3 Syncro Single cab

Just a regular guy

[Wildthings]

There are likely many things causing this.

-A crappy old battery with corroded posts just will not turn even a brand new factory starter all that well

-Crappy old battery cables that were marginal when new and are now 40+ years old, likely with junky temporary use replacement ends. Buying new cables that are a gauge or two larger than the original is a cheap fix at this point in time.

-The ground strap on the transmission is likely in no better shape than the battery cables. Probably around $15 for a nice hefty one.

-The starter solenoid is full of ancient dried up grease, easy enough fits to remove, clean, relube, and replace.

-The starter itself may be week as it hasn't seen a go 11 volts across its terminals in 15 years at this point.

-If the transmission has been rebuilt and painted over the last decade then the starter may not be making good electrical contact with the bellhousing. Scrape the mating surfaces clear of paint and use a thin smear of grease to keep corrosion at bay.

-The #50 wire may be a corroded mess, replace if there is much of a voltage drop from one end to the other when in use.

-The ignition switch may no longer be doing its job all that well. Buy a new OEM one and a spare, about $12-15 each.

[71whitewesty]

Wildthings covered all of the typical issues and worth checking them out. I also had this issue and chased my tail for a while and it ultimately ended up being my nearly new starter itself. Changed it out for an old original one I had laying around and the problem was completely solved. Took me a while to figure this out too.
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71 Westy 1600 DP, all stock Bus 1
1970's Snow Trac 1600 SP (sold 12/2016)
1968 Tucker sno cat, sold 2021
1969 Tucker Sno cat 542
2017 VW Alltrac
71 tin top stock 1600 DP (project but runs)
Twin 71 White Westy, Bus 2, that I pulled from a 15 year slumber in a dry eastern WA field in 2015.
1966 Sundial Camper "Boomer"

[SGKent]

[mr matt]

Ok, thanks will check out all the above, I think all associated wires are clean but will double check, and check tranny ground.. did not think of that..
Many thanks...
Otis, thanks for the link also...

Matt
_________________
1955 3-fold semaphore Oval beetle
1971 Convertible beetle
1977 Westfalia, FI, Berlin interior

[TomWesty]

[mr matt]

OK, thanks Tom, will do...
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1955 3-fold semaphore Oval beetle
1971 Convertible beetle
1977 Westfalia, FI, Berlin interior

[WhirledTraveller]

Just install the "hot start" relay and thank me later. You will chase your tail trying to get everything in the system to work perfectly just like factory fresh and then it will fail again on you somewhere inconvenient.

The relay fixes the problem caused by a bad design.
_________________
1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam.

[mr matt]

Hi WT,

Yes, very much looking into that....., and likely doing that...been talking to a few people.

thanks for your input -
Matt
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1955 3-fold semaphore Oval beetle
1971 Convertible beetle
1977 Westfalia, FI, Berlin interior

[SGKent]

[mr matt]

I know people have opinions regarding the relay or not, and I have read a lot here on thesamaba about it, including SGKent's great write up of starter cleaning/greasing, etc..
Tomorrow I plan on going through all the items mentioned above about cleaning all contacts, and starter/solenoid cleaning greasing, and see how things are with respect to their need of cleaning.

It does sound like the bus starter system is leaning toward a bad design if the need is to grease the solenoid every 4 years or so. I have a 1955 VW beetle which I have had for almost 18 years now, and with its aging wires, and only 6 volts, even in the winter the starter turns as it should when called upon. The starter came was with the car when I got it, and I know the car was stored for about 30 years. I never had to grease the solenoid, nor on any other bug I ever owned. This is my first bus.

Last summer, I went to Canada from ~ Phila, Pa and it was no fun at all (esp for my wife and daughter) being surprised that the bus would not start at the campsite even an hour after it was turned off. Did not sleep to well thinking if we were to be stuck the next morning for me, - my wife and daughter would be upset.

It did start, but again failed at a gas station fueling. My wife and I had to push the bus on a slight upgrade with my daughter uncomfortable in the driving seat never had kick start any vehicle. It was very fortunate that two men came over and pushed the bus with me in the driver seat to jump start. Fun memory now.. but then not so much.

I just want to avoid that situation again... or at the least increase my chances of no more surprises like that for this type of occurrence anyway.

Although I am a stock person, ...I am leaning toward a Ford relay switch that has a bump start, and although I hate to do it, install it. .. Unless I find the solenoid very dirty or bad contacts... which would give me confidence again to not use a relay - which I hope is the case.
I understand to actuate the relay the current/volts needed are less to trip the relay to the starter, vs than for the starter itself. With a bump starter I don't need any voltage to the ignition line apparently.

I do have to admit, swapping out a relay is much more convenient than pulling out a starter to clean/grease on a trip.

I will see how dirty things are.

Respectfully to all....
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1955 3-fold semaphore Oval beetle
1971 Convertible beetle
1977 Westfalia, FI, Berlin interior

[wihr]

As I have noted many times, that ground strap off the transmission is often the problem. Simply clean the ends to shiny.

WW
_________________
WIHR

1970 Campmobile "Van Ordinaire"
2009 Lincoln Town Car "Behemoth"
1969 Lambretta 150 DL "Nina"
1962 Matchless G 12 CS 650cc

[Wildthings]

FWIW, the first time I had the hot start syndrome occur was way back in 1992 or 93. Lubricated the solenoid and then never had the problem reoccur until this past summer, a time span of 26 or 27 years. I do maintain my charging system well, with clean terminals and nice fat cables.

Since you are on the east coast I would recommend that you change out your ground strap with a nice heavy one from your FLAPS instead of just cleaning the ends. They are not particularly expensive.

[mr matt]

Thanks, good advice - will do
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1955 3-fold semaphore Oval beetle
1971 Convertible beetle
1977 Westfalia, FI, Berlin interior

[67_13Deluxe]

I had this same problem in my 71. It turned out the grease in there was old and nasty. A little cleaning and re greasing, and cleaning some grounds and battery cables did the trick for me. Havent had a problem since. At least 4 months as of now.
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If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your bullsh*t.

56 Beetle - Wilbur. I found a lot of lipstick on this pig so far.
63 Beetle - Luna
66 13 window Bus - Tetanus
71 Bay Window - Lola. Totaled.

[Abscate]

It’s not bad design when you put crappy parts on a good design, it’s crappy parts.

Hot start relays are for people who are too lazy to fix the problems, plural.
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.ssS!

[vwwestyman]

I think the starter issue and the ignition switch/relay thing issue are separate, and not really an either/or argument.

The electrical connections (all of 'em!) need to be nice and clean, and the starter needs to be in good shape (including the grease) if things are going to work correctly. Follow the advice given on that stuff and you'll be well on your way.

With regards to the relay stuff, here are my thoughts. For what it's worth:

The original switches are now 40 years old, and getting a good replacement is difficult at best. Years ago, on my '78, the coil came loose, rotated around while I was driving, and the 12v wire from the ignition switch shorted out. Luckily the engine died before the wire was toasted beyond recognition and it didn't melt into other wire insulation, in fact, it's own insulation was barely damaged.

But it did kill the electrical portion of the ignition switch.

Since then, I've replaced it several times. Originally probably from a local source, but the last two or three were from advertiser/vendors here on the Samba. I know the last two for sure I spent more for the ones listed as best quality.

But I still had to futze around with starting the Bus. For a while it was with a relay triggered by a aftermarket horn button. Later it was I'd have to jiggle and push the wire harness under the switch a little. All the switches would work for a while before not working again. These were all triggering a relay, too.

Finally, I decided to try one more switch because I was tired of the wire jiggling dance. I installed it last May. It easily turned the Bus on each time!! However, the "key in" circuit wasn't fully functional, and that is important because that is what tells my radio to turn on. I still had to futze with the switch to make the radio work. My workaround was to snip a bit of plastic and insert it in the top of the switch so that the plunger in the switch would travel a little further and turn the radio on reliably.

That was in May and it is still working well today.

All that to say, a well-wired (beefy wires, good crimps, etc), well placed (i.e. in the engine compartment/not under the Bus exposed to water and dirt and gunk), high amp-carrying relay can be a good investment to protect the ignition switch from wear and tear.

The '78 has a relay, the '73 and Thing do not at this point. I may at some point add them in.
_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[WhirledTraveller]

[SGKent]

solenoid takes more current to pull in than hold. Telford has done the math. Once the grease hardens the ignition pulls much more current and the switch burns up. The solution is to grease the solenoid as part of regular maintenance every 45,000 to 55,000 miles. Cars of this era were meant to last 100,000 miles. That means every 3 to 4 years. These cars are now 40 - 50 years old.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin