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Intercooling a 1.6TD
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jarad
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:20 am    Post subject: Intercooling a 1.6TD Reply with quote

Hi guys, still working on my TD Westy. I have heard/seen people running a Saab Blackstone IC in there Vanagons, but I went to check fitment in the D/S spot in front of the taillight, but there seems to be a sheetmetal reinforcement right there preventing it from fully seating. What did some of you guys do here? Cut it out? Work around it? What fan do you guys recommend? I plan on running the fan on 12V switch power so that it will run whenever the Vanny is on. I'd love to hear or see what you guys have done in this application. Thanks! Think
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BlackDogVan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A topic of much discussion! (with the voices in my head at least...) After much thought, some snooping on the westy ventures conversion page and talking to Karl there I'm going air/water for mine. I just don't feel that the blackstone/saab unit can get enough cool, fresh air even with a fan & even if it could get some nice flow, its quite small. Maybe Karl can pipe in with his temp findings...

I ordered this rad & this IC for my build:

http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PR..._Code=HTEX

http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PR..._Code=AWIC

I deleted my A/C so the that rad will fit perfect behind my lower rad grill, the IC will be a bit of a fun time finding the perfect place but shouldn't be too bad. Build quality is actually really good & the secret is if you order direct from them they will match their ebay store price (roughly 1/2 when I ordered) so not too painful. VR6 aux coolant pump from a pick a part & a second coolant tank.

Or did you just want to talk about the saab unit... Embarassed
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jarad
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i was hoping to use the saab components that i already have. although it seems that you have some very useful info for when the big $$ start rolling in! Wink
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Alaric.H
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Air to air is a waste of time on a vanagon.
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allsierra123
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is a good water to air setup?
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jarad
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if air to air is such a waste of time, than why have so many other samba users used them? of course air to water would be more effective, but i think air to air would still be better than not running an intercooler at all
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jarad
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if air to air is such a waste of time, than why have so many other samba users used them? of course air to water would be more effective, but i think air to air would still be better than not running an intercooler at all
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BlackDogVan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Useless might be a bit harsh but all those saab units might not be as effective as their owners hope they are.

Quoting one of my favorite vanagon diesel guru's who did some testing on this subject:

"The liquid/air intercooler is the best way in a Vanagon; if done right it will get the intake temps within 10-20 degrees of ambient, the air/air Saab IC only cools about 60-80 degrees from the 250-300 degrees coming out of the turbo at 18 psi."
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wildenbeast
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went with the air to air setup because it was the tried and true method that had been done a number of times. People are using the liquid/air intercoolers but each time I have seen one mentioned, it is a different setup. Hopefully BlackDogVan can post his results once his is installed so we can start a thread that compares the various liquid/air setups whether in a TD or any other turbo'd motor (like the 1.8T).

I have photos for the air/air intercooler here; http://billwildenberg.shutterfly.com/vwvanagon

Bill
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Witless Joe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some thoughts about ICs.

There really are no results worth posting unless people mount a pre- and post-turbo air temperature sensor in their intake tract.

Almost nobody does that, since it's expensive, time consuming, and essentually worthless as driving information. Good for science, though!

I have an air/water setup on mine, but have not mounted these sensors. So I won't try to tell you it's the best way to go (even though I've shelled more dough and time than for an air-to-air IC, and would like to believe I have an advantage for that reason alone...). I can feel with my hand that there is a temperature difference pre & post turbo, so it's definitely better than no IC, but whether it's better than air-to-air, I have no hard data.

If you search threads here, there's plenty of info and photos of what people have done, but no real way to compare the relative performances. One of Karl Mullendore's customers had the two sensors mounted, IIRC, but that's the only van that has.

As to air-to-air ICs, there are several people here who mount oil coolers in their D-pillar columns, and are happy with the results. So If there is sufficient airflow for an oil cooler, I would think there must be enough for an intercooler, too. No hard data exists, though.

Air-to-water ICs are popular with the dragstrig crowd, because the water takes relatively a long time to heat soak. An air-to-air IC can get hot more quickly, but it also sheds heat more quickly than the water in an A2W IC.

So for short bursts at full throttle, an A2W IC is the bees knees at a drag strip, especially when they are artificially cooled below ambient temperature with ice water. That's impractical on a van, of course.

However, unlike drag strip cars, for a TD van, the turbo will be running steady state boost for long periods of time. That's long enough to heat soak the water, presumably to about the same point as an A2A IC, but the A2W IC will take longer to cool off again after the highway trip is over.

Good luck, whichever way you roll the dice.
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BlackDogVan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Witless Joe wrote:


There really are no results worth posting unless people mount a pre- and post-turbo air temperature sensor in their intake tract.



Blackdogvan wrote:


The liquid/air intercooler is the best way in a Vanagon; if done right it will get the intake temps within 10-20 degrees of ambient, the air/air Saab IC only cools about 60-80 degrees from the 250-300 degrees coming out of the turbo at 18 psi.


I can take no credit for this info. Other people's time & effort!


Last edited by BlackDogVan on Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Witless Joe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, we do have a single data point.

That's data from Karl's one customer's install, from his A2W IC, pre & post.

I don't know where the A2A numbers come from, though, as I didn't think he did two complete installs, (A2A, then replace with A2W), each with the paired sensors.

Maybe he'll see this thread and tell us.
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Alaric.H
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have that gauge after I put a larger intercooler on it went from 190deg to 130deg at 70-75mph on hilly highways at 90deg outside temp.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Witless Joe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right on, more data points.

So, Karl's customer got within 10 - 20 degrees F of ambient, and Alaric gets within 40 degrees F of ambient.

Can anybody with these sensors mounted on an air-to-air IC provide a comparable data point?
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've stayed out of this conversation until now because I have not yet mounted the sensors pre and post and agree that without datapoints opinions are not particularly useful. I will mention that a few years ago when I initially mocked up a Saab 900 intercooler I used ABS for the ease of it. The pre-intercooler ABS tube melted and deformed and eventually popped. The post intercooler one did not deform at all. There's a fairly unscientific data point that showed me that the intercooler was doing something...

I am currently in the process of installing Saab 900 intercooler along with the sensors for judging the effectiveness of the cooler. I'll report back with numbers when I have them.
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Saguache
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildenbeast wrote:
I went with the air to air setup because it was the tried and true method that had been done a number of times. People are using the liquid/air intercoolers but each time I have seen one mentioned, it is a different setup. Hopefully BlackDogVan can post his results once his is installed so we can start a thread that compares the various liquid/air setups whether in a TD or any other turbo'd motor (like the 1.8T).


Bill,

Who did your exhust work?

http://billwildenberg.shutterfly.com/vwvanagon/194#199

This looks awesome and I need to do something similar on my 1.6 + turbo. Have you been pleased with the work since its installed, any problems?
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Alaric.H
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Witless Joe wrote:
Right on, more data points.

So, Karl's customer got within 10 - 20 degrees F of ambient, and Alaric gets within 40 degrees F of ambient.

Can anybody with these sensors mounted on an air-to-air IC provide a comparable data point?

Well kinda of that is worse case summer driveing fullly loaded slow down to 65mph and she is at 10-20 deg of ambient.
What I mean by a waste of time is if you are going through all the trouble to install a intercooler in you you just do the best one.
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ThorAlex
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone know if there is any airflow in the space over the gearbox? A auto parts store here has started selling some pretty reasonably priced all aluminium intercoolers, two sizes 600 x 300 x 76mm and 450 x 160 x 68mm. I'm thinking the smallest one should fit well, maybe even the big one? They look pretty big so they should cool well I think?
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wildenbeast
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mthyer wrote:
wildenbeast wrote:
I went with the air to air setup because it was the tried and true method that had been done a number of times. People are using the liquid/air intercoolers but each time I have seen one mentioned, it is a different setup. Hopefully BlackDogVan can post his results once his is installed so we can start a thread that compares the various liquid/air setups whether in a TD or any other turbo'd motor (like the 1.8T).


Bill,

Who did your exhust work?

http://billwildenberg.shutterfly.com/vwvanagon/194#199

This looks awesome and I need to do something similar on my 1.6 + turbo. Have you been pleased with the work since its installed, any problems?


I had a lot of the same problems with my original exhaust as reported in this thread; http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9531&sid=bba62669f45a41c453c4a3295f572293
At the end of the thread I have posted all my links to help other people get a good exhaust fabricated when going to a mandrel bender.

The one thing that got lost in the mail prior to my appointment were these rubber isolators; http://www.familycar.com/store/item/Volkswagen_Vanagon_Bosal_Exhaust-Hanger_1982_1985_BO255262.html
You MUST have some sort of isolator on your exhaust. I used the blue pieces shown in this photo in lieu of the ones I mentioned above;
http://billwildenberg.shutterfly.com/vwvanagon/199

Hanksville Hot Rods (http://www.hanksvillehotrods.com/ContactUs/tabid/532/Default.aspx) on the south side of Denver did all of the work. I have had no problems since the exhaust was installed (August 2009). I have been on many trips since...

Bill
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to point out a couple of items about why IMO your exhaust install is successful. One is that you have a solid diagonal brace from the downpipe to the engine block prior to the flex section. Another reason is the fact that you hung the exhaust off the engine and not off the body of the vehicle. Both are important, IMO. One improvement I would suggest is to have both isolators installed to the driver's side mounting bracket. The stock diesel vanagon has one on the side of the bracket (where you have the two blue bushes installed) and a second one on the top of the mounting bracket. IMO the top isolator is important to dampen the twisting force on the other two isolators and extend the life of the other two. Without out it, the stock diesel isolators will have a tendency to separate.
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